LBC reporter checking on train drivers

[A-driver]

What worries me about this thread is that you have clearly demonstrated an inability to comprehend written information. Even when it is repeated multiple times, it appears that you are unable to take the information on board. Bearing in mind the job that you do, that's quite disturbing.

I beg your pardon? I think it you who is missing the real argument and constantly spurting out rubbish!

And now you resort to personal attacks as you have nothing better to argue!

Pathetic.

 

[A-driver]

I don't need to be. I'm not the one refuting what countless expert psychologists have proven.

Countless? You have shown me one so far-I can count that high so it's not countless is it?!

 

[transmanche]

And now you resort to personal attacks as you have nothing better to argue!

No. An observation based on the behaviour you have demonstrated in this thread.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Countless? You have shown me one so far-I can count that high so it's not countless is it?!

I gave you four links to news items about different studies. Each one of those studies will have involved far more than just one psychologist.

 

[A-driver]

No. An observation based on the behaviour you have demonstrated in this thread.

An incorrect observation. You have continually ignored points put across and concentrated on a few 'non arguments' and even resorted to admitting you have no knowledge on your argument and so provided a google link.

I'm not wasting time debating something I do have knowledge and experience of with someone who just reads it on google and counts it as gospel.

 

[transmanche]

An incorrect observation. You have continually ignored points put across and concentrated on a few 'non arguments' and even resorted to admitting you have no knowledge on your argument and so provided a google link.

I haven't provided any 'Google links'.

I'm not wasting time debating something I do have knowledge and experience of with someone who just reads it on google and counts it as gospel.

When it comes to human psychology, I think the psychologists are better placed to provide an expert opinion than your or I.

I read the information published and can comprehend the information I read. I can discriminate between the veracity of different sources: a peer-reviewed paper published by University researchers is going to be far more trustworthy than the opinion of a random person.

But it seems you think you know better...

 

[A-driver]

I haven't provided any 'Google links'.

When it comes to human psychology, I think the psychologists are better placed to provide an expert opinion than your or I.

I read the information published and can comprehend the information I read. I can discriminate between the veracity of different sources: a peer-reviewed paper published by University researchers is going to be far more trustworthy than the opinion of a random person.

But it seems you think you know better...

I completely agree that uni researchers will be more trustworthy. But that is one side of the research. And if its so conclusive then why are car drivers still allowed to use their phone whilst driving? I'd worry more about a car veering off course on a motorway doing 70 and causing a pile up than a train driver sliding 20meters past a red peg at 20mph as they got distracted and misjudged it. Or a 30mph car driver concentrating on a phone call and failing to spot the kid running into the road.

And who said anything about emotional phone calls anyway-that was you. I said I saw no issue with phoning my wife to ask her to buy dinner. I would do that whilst driving a car. I wouldn't have a long important emotional phone call at the wheel though. So why, if its so dangerous for train drivers, is it ok for motorists?

Plus I thought this topic was about front facing windows?

 

[ModernRailways]

Plus I thought this topic was about front facing windows?

This topic is actually about an LBC reporter checking drivers, but it seems to have diverted off into a discussion about windows at the front of trains...

 

[A-driver]

This topic is actually about an LBC reporter checking drivers, but it seems to have diverted off into a discussion about windows at the front of trains...

I 100% agree and mentioned this a few times.

Unfortunately it was hijacked by people wanting to see out the front of the train and having real issues understanding reasons why they can't.

 

[TDK]

I'd bet that most people don't actually give a monkey's about seeing the driver. But they do like a forward view.

Why do they want a forward view?

 

[YorkshireBear]

I agree with the points about social media? We all remember the article with the freightliner driver appearing in the daily mail. My opinion is you would get lots of incidents like that.

As a nation we have become a lot more annoying and disrespectful since the windows in DMUs is essentially why i see it as a problem then before. This is UK not necessarily Europe. Hence why it is fine in Germany.

 

[Antman]

It seems to me that there is a bit of a pompous attitude among certain ranks of railway employees - somewhat akin to the 'don't you know who I am?' attitude.

I would suggest that any person purporting to be a professional is not outside the realms of accountability. Therefore I cannot imagine why it would be such a problem for CCTV to be installed in a drivers cab.

Pompous attitude? Surely not?

Whilst I can understand train drivers not being thrilled at a 'spy in the cab' it is hard to see any valid argument against it. Lorry drivers objected to tachographs when they came in and more recently bus drivers have objected to camera's watching them, but in both cases they are now just accepted as par for the course. Of course it is unlikely that anybody is going to have time to sit and watch hours and hours of CCTV footage but in the case of a serious incident (ie the train crash in Spain which started this debate) it can soon be established exactly what the driver was doing at the time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I completely agree that uni researchers will be more trustworthy. But that is one side of the research. And if its so conclusive then why are car drivers still allowed to use their phone whilst driving? I'd worry more about a car veering off course on a motorway doing 70 and causing a pile up than a train driver sliding 20meters past a red peg at 20mph as they got distracted and misjudged it. Or a 30mph car driver concentrating on a phone call and failing to spot the kid running into the road.

And who said anything about emotional phone calls anyway-that was you. I said I saw no issue with phoning my wife to ask her to buy dinner. I would do that whilst driving a car. I wouldn't have a long important emotional phone call at the wheel though. So why, if its so dangerous for train drivers, is it ok for motorists?

Plus I thought this topic was about front facing windows?

I don't know if I've misunderstood something here but who said it is ok for motorists to use a phone when driving? I would suggest even a hands free (which is currently legal) is a dangerous distraction, when driving...............just drive. If you want to make or receive a phone call then stop somewhere safe and do so.

 

[158747]

Why do they want a forward view?

I think a lot of people are just curious and would like to see the view from the front and to be able to see where the train is going.

 

[Temple Meads]

I 100% agree and mentioned this a few times.

Unfortunately it was hijacked by people wanting to see out the front of the train and having real issues understanding reasons why they can't.

Don't know if this is aimed at me at all, but although I would love forward facing windows, I acknowledge the drivers right to privacy, and also the fact it's unlikely to ever happen.

 

[Latecomer]

I get enough people knocking on the cab door from the platform even when station duties are complete, I have interlock and am about to take power, so I think this would be multiplied massively if people could see me from the saloon. There's also occasions when trains are delayed and waiting at a red when you get people hammering on the door demanding miracles from the driver in spite of PA announcements. How much worse it would be with a glass partition I don't know?

Finally, whilst I don't do so myself, some drivers take a very relaxed posture when driving - seat reclined right back, foot up, etc, etc. If that's what helps them to drive in a safe and relaxed manner then so they should. I can imagine however that witnessed by anyone else they might be regarded as lax and be accused of not concentrating fully (let alone not upholding the image of the company, etc!).

Drivers don't have anything to hide, but we are unanimously saying we don't want to be directly observed doing our job. At best the additional awareness of said observation would make the job more tiring and at worst direct passenger communication could lead to an incident whether directly or indirectly. It's about time that non-drivers just accept that. There is nothing to hide - we're not on our phones each time we get a moment, but we do like the cab to be as calm and secure an environment as it can be. We are pretty good at avoiding distractions most of the time, but why up the risk? Amongst other things it's the separation from passengers that helps us to conduct our jobs safely.

I would suggest that it's time to just accept that and move on from the debate.

 

[CC 72100]

The only argument for a window that I can see is curiosity, which isn't really a valid argument, for the railway is not run for the benefit of enthusiasts (as nice as it would be to have a front view). This idea is a complete non-starter in my opinion.

Drivers don't have anything to hide, but we are unanimously saying we don't want to be directly observed doing our job. At best the additional awareness of said observation would make the job more tiring and at worst direct passenger communication could lead to an incident whether directly or indirectly. It's about time that non-drivers just accept that. There is nothing to hide - we're not on our phones each time we get a moment, but we do like the cab to be as calm and secure an environment as it can be. We are pretty good at avoiding distractions most of the time, but why up the risk? Amongst other things it's the separation from passengers that helps us to conduct our jobs safely.

I would suggest that it's time to just accept that and move on from the debate.

Even as non-staff, I can't help feeling you've summed it up perfectly there. Spot on.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

ICE3s, I think, only have forward facing windows in First Class.
So you get a better class of voyeur, and they pay for the view.

A few years ago I did a run on an Italian ETR train on the high-speed line from Florence to Rome.
The train did not have a big window but a small central porthole facing front, without any view of the driver or the cab.
But you can see the line ahead, and can follow the driver's view of signals, tunnels and curves, and the impressive scenery.
It is a very interesting view and does not offend the privacy of the cab.
It is also a passenger attraction, part of the deal for travelling First Class.

I once travelled on a VT Voyager which displayed the real-time speed on the internal PIS.
Sadly this is not a normal procedure.
It's things like this which increase the enjoyment of travelling, much like the moving maps on an otherwise tedious long-haul flight.

So I think we should have a forward view on trains (nothing to do with checking up on drivers).
A monitor with a wide-angle forward facing view would be great fun.
Just like on the Airbus A380.

 

[ModernRailways]

ICE3s, I think, only have forward facing windows in First Class.
So you get a better class of voyeur, and they pay for the view.

A few years ago I did a run on an Italian ETR train on the high-speed line from Florence to Rome.
The train did not have a big window but a small central porthole facing front, without any view of the driver or the cab.
But you can see the line ahead, and can follow the driver's view of signals, tunnels and curves, and the impressive scenery.
It is a very interesting view and does not offend the privacy of the cab.
It is also a passenger attraction, part of the deal for travelling First Class.

I once travelled on a VT Voyager which displayed the real-time speed on the internal PIS.
Sadly this is not a normal procedure.
It's things like this which increase the enjoyment of travelling, much like the moving maps on an otherwise tedious long-haul flight.

So I think we should have a forward view on trains (nothing to do with checking up on drivers).
A monitor with a wide-angle forward facing view would be great fun.
Just like on the Airbus A380.

Surely, a camera that would be feeded to monitors inside trains would be better? First Class all get their own screen, but in Standard they are just dangling from the roof of the carriage down the aisles. First Class users could also watch a film on long distance journeys.
Maybe something similar to First Great Western's Volo(?) carriage.

 

[The Planner]

Why not buy a cab ride DVD if people are that desperate to see where they are going?
I could be on to something here, I'll buy a knackered carriage, put a big 60" screen at one end, have some sort of gubbins to make it rock, some big fans near the droplights for wind and free Kleenex in the bogs. Ker-ching!

 

[TBY-Paul]

What a negative place the world has become. Most of the arguments put forward from drivers are spurious negative reasons, as has been pointed out.
I'd like to go back to the OP's first post if I may, and highlight a few things.

Now that it had been confirmed that the Spanish driver was on a mobile phone LBC sent a reporter with binoculars to Clapham Junction to see how many train drivers he could spot with a mobile phone. He failed to spot one.

This sort of thing has left me feeling that the public no longer trusts train drivers and others have suggested that CCTV in the cab alongside glass partitions so passengers can keep an eye on the driver are the way forward.

I will be resisting any such measures as I consider myself to be a professional and don't need checking up on. What do others think? Is being a train driver still a respected job?

Is being a train driver still a respected job, probably not. Why, because your just a faceless person at the front of the train. Nobody see's what you do anymore, Nobody understands what you do anymore, and to a certain extent nobody cares anymore, they just want to get from A-B with out fuss, it's a modern thing, faceless people doing faceless tasks. People don't care unless something goes wrong, and I find that sad.

A few years ago, the wife and I had just got a train at King's Cross, making our way with the crowds down the platform, as we got near the front of the train, unusually, the driver was locking the Cab door, instinctively we both said "thank you" in just the same way we always say "Thank you" to bus drivers as we get off buses. You see, my wife and I are from a time when saying thank you to someone doing a public service was a sign of gratitude and respect. He looked at us somewhat surprised, and just smiled. It was a small thing, that I hope meant a lot.
Where did we learn this attitude, we were taught it by our parents, and by being able to see these people doing their jobs. In the case of train drivers, from behind the glass panel on class 101's (I think that's what the trains were on our local line).
From a young age we were able to see the man driving the train, and taught to respect "the busy man driving the train" why " because he had an important job". He would never look round, never acknowledge us, which just added to the aurora of importance.

Its something I've taught my children (25 & 28),respect and manners, they also always say "thank you" to bus drivers, train staff when/if given the opportunity at the end of a journey.

I do realise that modern day drivers will dismiss this post as sentimental twaddle from a bygone age.

Another nail in the coffin, is when you here people describing customers/ passengers/ the fare paying public as "Punters". Respect is a two-way street, treat others as you would wish to be treated

 

[Antman]

Excellent post TBY Paul

 

[pinguini]

Cashiers for example have CCTV watching their every move.

I was a bank cashier for 5 years and I certainly had no CCTV watching my interaction with the cash. It was filming the customers in front of me, sure, but not me.

 

[Rugd1022]

Have some drivers something to hide from passengers ?

Nope...! I just don't fancy the thought that if I were a passenger driver, having someone looking over my shoulder while I'm concentrating on the job. I know some drivers were never that bothered when the first generation DMUs had them but I know a lot who were, especially on late night trains full of drunks 'giving it some' for the sake of it. It's just another distraction we don't really need.

 

[Bevan Price]

Nope-nothing to hide but I still don't want a load of punters watching me do my job.

Plus it will lead to drivers feeling pressurised to work quickly if they have to deal with something, fix a fault, inspect the line etc. There are times during disruption when asked to perhaps do an unusual shunt and I will usually spend a few minutes looking it up in my route guide before moving. If you have a load of punters watching you and banging on the window for you to hurry up and stop mucking about reading books etc then it could lead to drivers rushing and making mistakes. Only today I held up a train by a little but whilst I grabbed some water from my bag in the heat-we were stopped at a station but all the rush hour commuters would have been tutting and moaning if they saw that I was delaying their train whilst I got something to drink!

Plus, what business is it of the public to watch me work exactly? Still no one has justified having a window into the cab except that 'Newcastle metro does it' and 'it would be good to see where we are going'. Neither if those are reasons.

So I presume you would not have become a driver if you had had to drive first generation dmus in "as-built" condition ? In their early years, some drivers were "discouraged" from using the blinds except at night - I have even seen guards raise the blinds during daylight hours , if the driver had "forgotten" to raise them.

Obviously, they are not going to spend money to convert current dmus, to put glass screens between cab & passenger areas, but would you leave the railway if some future management insisted on glass screens in third generation units ?

I had no objection to people watching me using very expensive equipment, but I had the ability to largely ignore their presence - an ability seemingly shared by many drivers of first generation dmus. .

 

[Latecomer]

Regardless as to valid points being put forward by drivers part of this thread descended into a slanging match and frankly some of the posts are just becoming antagonistic. Some people who suggest they held respect for drivers from past eras clearly have none now. I believe respect should be earned rather than expected, but my point remains. My own posts have clearly stated reasons why I don't want to be observed (or potentially distracted) Based primarily on safety reasons. It stands for nothing. I suggest that drivers now withdraw from this thread because I think there is a vocal minority who do not have the mindset to understand the points are being made. We'll continue to drive you to your destinations as 'faceless' individuals, but we'll do so safely and professionally with what we do remaining unseen. After all we only push or pull a lever don't we?

 

[IanXC]

As I understand it we have seen the outcome of the LBC investigation, and commented on the factual way in which they reported the outcome.

We have seen the arguments for passengers being able to see a forward view.

We have seen the reasons this is not installed, and is unlikely to be in future.

I think that pretty much wraps up the thread.