Lay over times

[BantamMenace]

I'm conducting research in the run up to a university project i hope to undertake in the autumn and need some information.

Are there any guidelines for minimum/optimum layoff times when diagramming units?

I understand that after completing a journey trains have a layover time so they can be reversed and so that any delays can be cancelled out before beginning the next journey but are there any official lengths of time?

For example, a Leeds to Skipton service that arrives at XX03 could then form the XX04 back to Leeds or Bradford theoretically but it never would for practical reasons so is there a generally accepted minimum?

Thank you in advance

 

[The Planner]

All the turnround times are found in the Timetable Planning Rules. They are set in agreement with the TOCs themselves.

 

[dave_wm]

From the LNE Timetable Planning Rules, the standard minimum times for turnaround are as follows:

DMU: 4 minutes
EMU: London Suburban 6 minutes
EMU: 4 minutes
HST / Loco Hauled: 35 minutes

But there are major variations at different stations. Leeds, for example, says the following.
HST to/from London King's Cross: 25 minutes
HST to/from London St. Pancras: 20 minutes
EMU from Bradford/Skipton/Ilkley: 5 minutes (but not two consecutive; two consecutive turnrounds must not be less than 15 minutes)
Short Distance DMU: 7 minutes (except by special arrangement)
EMU from Doncaster: 10 minutes (can reduce to 7 minutes but not consecutively)
Long Distance DMU: 15 minutes
XC: 20 minutes (10 minutes by exception and agreement with Network Rail)
TPE: 8 minutes (5 minutes for trains starting from York)

P108 onwards in this document (Leeds is on P232)
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/Rules Of The Route/Viewable copy/TPRyearYY/lneYYp.pdf

 

[D6975]

Turnround times probably don't allow for recovery time.
Published arrival times are often several minutes after the actual booked arrival time.
This may make turnrounds look tighter than they actually are, or in extreme cases lead to negative turnround times - see the Wrexham-Bidston line as an example of this.

 

[455driver]

Turnround times probably don't allow for recovery time.
Published arrival times are often several minutes after the actual booked arrival time.
This may make turnrounds look tighter than they actually are, or in extreme cases lead to negative turnround times - see the Wrexham-Bidston line as an example of this.

Trains dont run to the published (public) times, they run to the working timetable and the post by Dave WM pretty much covers it although some 2 coach DMUs only have a 3 minute turn around.

 

[The Planner]

Turnaround times are based on WTT not PTT, therefore if you arrive at xx:00 WTT with a 20 minute turnaround you can't go before xx:20.

 

[455driver]

Turnaround times are based on WTT not PTT, therefore if you arrive at xx:00 WTT with a 20 minute turnaround you can't go before xx:20.

But I bet if it arrives at xx:10 and the crew are on the ball it will still leave at xx:20.

I have done some very quite turn arounds even if it means I am still setting the cab up on the move!

 

[The Planner]

Don't disagree, it would all fall flat on its arse pretty quick if that didn't happen in perturbation!

 

[jopsuk]

What's the fastest the Underground turns around, eg at Brixton on the Victoria? I know that can involve "stepping back" where there's already a driver waiting at what will be the front on the way out...

and why shouldn't a mainline metro or suburban unit be able to turn around almost as quickly?

 

[455driver]

What's the fastest the Underground turns around, eg at Brixton on the Victoria? I know that can involve "stepping back" where there's already a driver waiting at what will be the front on the way out...

and why shouldn't a mainline metro or suburban unit be able to turn around almost as quickly?

Because the only place there would likely be a replacement driver available would be the London Terminus where the train will have to wait its turn anyway, they wont be able to turn one around in 2 minutes because the TRTS would have to pressed but the route would already have been set for another train.

Where it would make a difference is at the outer terminus but there wouldnt be any drivers available anyway, just have to leave it up to the existing driver to walk very quickly (we dont do running)!

 

[user15681]

What's the fastest the Underground turns around, eg at Brixton on the Victoria? I know that can involve "stepping back" where there's already a driver waiting at what will be the front on the way out...

Step back is in operation at Brixton. An article I read once quoted 218 seconds (3 mins 38 secs) as the minimum turn around to achieve 33tph. A post over on District Dave suggests that if there's no conflict with other services arriving or departing the other platform, turn arounds can be sub 1 minute. Pretty impressive if that's the case!

 

[BantamMenace]

Thank you for all the excellent replies, very knowledgable bunch.

To add more meat to the bone; my project specifically is looking at electrification of lines and the cascade of older electric rolling stock and how it is then followed (after this proves successful) with an order of new stock. So I'm looking at a possible new fleet of emus for Northern in say the next decade and trying to configure diagrams to achieve a number that need to be procured.

 

[Nym]

Step back is in operation at Brixton. An article I read once quoted 218 seconds (3 mins 38 secs) as the minimum turn around to achieve 33tph. A post over on District Dave suggests that if there's no conflict with other services arriving or departing the other platform, turn arounds can be sub 1 minute. Pretty impressive if that's the case!

I've known 45s turnarounds at Brixton to get trains back in the right order before.

Stepping back is also in operation in the peak periods on Platform 2 and Platform 3 at Aldgate.

 

[Crossover]

In a different context , Northern can turn round quickly at the end of the day if it means getting home

Whilst at uni, seeing the last Northern into Stoke on Trent occurred a couple of times a month. If all was running OK around it, into p3 it came, no sooner was it in the starter had been cleared, doors open and off appeared a few passengers, quick change of ends and off it popped ECS!

 

[DJL]

I think I read somewhere that the W&C steps back 2 trains at Bank?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Thank you for all the excellent replies, very knowledgable bunch.

To add more meat to the bone; my project specifically is looking at electrification of lines and the cascade of older electric rolling stock and how it is then followed (after this proves successful) with an order of new stock. So I'm looking at a possible new fleet of emus for Northern in say the next decade and trying to configure diagrams to achieve a number that need to be procured.

No doubt inspired by the what happened on the Leeds NW electrification project? I myself did my uni project on electrification i imagine you will enjoy it thoroughly, i did.

What electrification are you looking at for these proposed new units? Are you looking at whether the business case stands up etc? How long the second hand EMUs could be made to last?

 

[BantamMenace]

No doubt inspired by the what happened on the Leeds NW electrification project? I myself did my uni project on electrification i imagine you will enjoy it thoroughly, i did.

What electrification are you looking at for these proposed new units? Are you looking at whether the business case stands up etc? How long the second hand EMUs could be made to last?

I'm local to the airedale line even though i study at Lancaster so yes, inspired by the airedale and wharfedale lines.

I'm hoping to look at the use of the class 319s on the following local services:

-Liverpool to Manchester (vic and airport) stopping services.
-Liverpool to Blackpool North
-Manchester to Blackpool via Bolton
-Manchester to Wigan via N-le-W
-Manchester to Wigan via Bolton
-Manchester to Leeds
-Leeds to York
-Leeds to Huddersfield
-Leeds to Selby (hopefully Hull soon)

and then further electrification to allow them to operate:

-Manchester to Wigan via Atherton
-Manchester to Chester
-Manchester to Ellesmere port
-Manchester to Sheffield and Rose Hill Marple
-Liverpool to Chester
-Liverpool to Ellesmere Port
-Preston to Morecambe
-Preston to Barrow
-Preston to Windermere
-Leeds to York via Harrogate

I'm trying to create a business case for a standard 4-car hourly, half hourly or every twenty minutes service on all these routes and then a replacement of the entire 319, 321, 322, 323 and 333 fleet with a new fleet of 4 and 6 car emus. With all but the 333s, which i'd cascade to the welsh valleys in the 2020s, being scrapped.

If this proves fruitful i'd look at ticketing systems then to raise revenue collection by introducing DOO and ticket barriers so to keep staff numbers similar, increase the number of staffed stations and decrease fare evasion.

 

[30907]

Because the only place there would likely be a replacement driver available would be the London Terminus where the train will have to wait its turn anyway, they wont be able to turn one around in 2 minutes because the TRTS would have to pressed but the route would already have been set for another train.

I thought it used to be done at Charing Cross (1-3 only?) because a crew couldn't guarantee to change ends in the time against the massive flow of passengers in a relatively confined space? Platforms were reoccupied every 11 minutes on average in the 1971 WTT I have to hand, and I think every 10 when the regular interval timetable came in after the Borough Market job.

(@ O L Leigh: This was, of course, in EPB days, which I imagine were even quicker to turn round than a 319?)

 

[O L Leigh]

How in God's name can a train crew hand over a train in the times quoted on "step back"? Apart from catching the driver's eye on arrival and exchanging a brief thumbs up, how can the relieving crew know anything about the condition of the train or any other issues that are supposed to be communicated when relieving an incoming crew at a given location? Madness!!

To address the OP's question...

Each TOC will set down in either it's professional driving policy or traction manual what the times are for mobilising or immobilising a train of any given class, or changing ends. From experience, it is quicker to change ends on an older unit like a Cl319 than it would be on a newer unit. New trains have a lot more computers on board that need time to configure as well as driver-controlled systems such as selective door opening that needs to be set up prior to departure. It is quicker to set up an older unit than a newer one.

Either way, TOCs should not permit turnaround times less than those mandated under their own professional driving policies for obvious reasons. Putting drivers in the position of having to set the cabs up on the move is a huge risk and any driver who values his/her living would not open themselves up to the possibility of an incident through rushing their cab drills.

Working stuff out on a piece of paper is a wonderful idea, but it must be leavened with some operational nous. One of my uncles (sadly now passed on) used to work for LUL and his wife, my aunt, told me of a young graduate who came down to work for them. This young blade was given the task of looking at the drivers rosters and diagrams and told to go away and come up with a new roster and new diagrams. This he did with great relish. However, when my uncle cast his eye over this young whippersnapper's work he immediately spotted a problem. When were the drivers going to take their break? What had happened to their rest days? In his quest for efficiency the graduate had completely overlooked the need for the drivers to have time built in to their days for rest periods and the importance of these rest periods for safety and efficiency.

Now I know that we're talking about unit diagrams, but train crew diagrams are linked into them also. Bear in mind too that delay attribution is a big problem for the TOCs. Minimum turnaround times will mean that a service will take much longer to recover from any delays it might suffer. Therefore you will need to allow greater recovery time for any service that might be particularly prone to delays and account for this accordingly.

Basically what I'm saying is that for any proposal to be realistic, even if it is simply for a University research project, it has to be rooted in the real world. Simply adding things up on a piece of paper will not necessarily result in a workable outcome.

Good luck.

O L Leigh

 

[A-driver]

At my toc we are given 5 mins to change ends on anything up to a 6 car train and slightly longer for 8&12s. Off peak it's fine but changing ends in the morning peak at Moorgate is impossible in 5 mins due to the large flow of people walking the opposite way to you on the tiny platforms.

 

[causton]

At my toc we are given 5 mins to change ends on anything up to a 6 car train and slightly longer for 8&12s. Off peak it's fine but changing ends in the morning peak at Moorgate is impossible in 5 mins due to the large flow of people walking the opposite way to you on the tiny platforms.

Indeed, I was amazed seeing that at Moorgate... never mind the fact the train arrived 2-3 minutes late anyway so was due to leave in something like two minutes and I had barely got halfway down the platform following the crowd! Amazing how anything runs on time on the Moorgate branch!

 

[A-driver]

Indeed, I was amazed seeing that at Moorgate... never mind the fact the train arrived 2-3 minutes late anyway so was due to leave in something like two minutes and I had barely got halfway down the platform following the crowd! Amazing how anything runs on time on the Moorgate branch!

It dosnt run to time in the peak...no extended dwell times to take into account the length of time taken to allow the crowds to squeeze onto already full trains. You just end up getting later and later. Pretty common to arrive into Moorgate as you should be leaving again in the morning peak. Changing ends just increases the delay.