Late platform changes.

[Pompey00]

So at Havant today there were multiple last minute platform changes and I can tell people were annoyed.

Due to the London Waterloo via Guildford line being closed for engineering works, there’s a bus replacement between Havant and haslemere. Trains from Portsmouth terminate/start at Havant and trains from Waterloo terminate/start from haslemere.

But because of the sudden changes, people were rushing over and a lot of them didn’t make it in time or was told one thing but it was the other platform.

I think signallers need to be clearer and possibly allow 3-4 minutes to give people time to cross.

There are big families with little ones, disabled people, people with luggage and elderly.

What are your opinions please ?

 

[zwk500]

What was the reason for the trains being changed to the alternate platform? The signallers usually don't move trains from the booked platform without good reason, which usually means they're too busy to be letting other people know. This is one of those ones where co-location in a ROC can really speed up communication, but it also requires platform staff to be kept in the loop which is all to often where the system breaks down.

The amount of times I've caught the train and the platform staff either have Open Train Times up on their phones, or are just standing on the footbridge yelling the trains out as the come in. Control usually have a plan, but the Social Media guys and platform guys are often several versions out of date by the time they hear it.

The other option is that it was bad planning at the timetable stage, either by SWR or NR, for which the solution is easy to say but hard to do: get the plan done properly.

 

[Pompey00]

What was the reason for the trains being changed to the alternate platform? The signallers usually don't move trains from the booked platform without good reason, which usually means they're too busy to be letting other people know. This is one of those ones where co-location in a ROC can really speed up communication, but it also requires platform staff to be kept in the loop which is all to often where the system breaks down.

The amount of times I've caught the train and the platform staff either have Open Train Times up on their phones, or are just standing on the footbridge yelling the trains out as the come in. Control usually have a plan, but the Social Media guys and platform guys are often several versions out of date by the time they hear it.

The other option is that it was bad planning at the timetable stage, either by SWR or NR, for which the solution is easy to say but hard to do: get the plan done properly.

The train originally leaving on a certain platform was delayed so they had to put it on another but there’s 2 platforms and couple times the same train was showing platform 1 then platform back to platform 1 when it finally came in.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Oct 2022 ==

The train originally leaving on a certain platform was delayed so they had to put it on another but there’s 2 platforms and couple times the same train was showing platform 1 then platform back to platform 1 when it finally came in.

Yh get that busy but customers don’t understand that and then they get peed off for missing train which they are booked on say like the london Victoria because they need get off a Gatwick to check in for flight.

 

[zwk500]

The train originally leaving on a certain platform was delayed so they had to put it on another but there’s 2 platforms and couple times the same train was showing platform 1 then platform back to platform 1 when it finally came in.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Oct 2022 ==


Yh get that busy but customers don’t understand that and then they get peed off for missing train which they are booked on say like the london Victoria because they need get off a Gatwick to check in for flight.

Customer management is really where control need to be making sure there's clear communication. I feel for them, just as I sympathise with the passengers (I've had a nearly identical experience at York), but the signallers in this situation are trying to get the service back on time.

 

[Pompey00]

Customer management is really where control need to be making sure there's clear communication. I feel for them, just as I sympathise with the passengers (I've had a nearly identical experience at York), but the signallers in this situation are trying to get the service back on time.

Yh there never is clear communication.

 

[HantsExile]

Same thing happened to me at Basingstoke today, during a journey between Bristol Parkway and Winchester already much delayed (1 hour +) by wire issues at Cardiff Central. I had about a half hour wait at Basingstoke for the Winchester train, this was consistently shown on station displays and online as coming to Platform 3 until about 3 minutes before it was due - when it was announced as coming in on Platform 1. A steep flight of stairs down (or wait for the lift), through the subway and a steep flight of stairs up (or wait for the lift). I'm an old lady with dodgy knees - and I only just made it! If I had missed it, it would have added a further half hour minimum to my delay. I hate changing at Basingstoke, they have form for these last minute platform changes. And like others, I wonder why the change and why the last-minute communication?

 

[pompeyfan]

Same thing happened to me at Basingstoke today, during a journey between Bristol Parkway and Winchester already much delayed (1 hour +) by wire issues at Cardiff Central. I had about a half hour wait at Basingstoke for the Winchester train, this was consistently shown on station displays and online as coming to Platform 3 until about 3 minutes before it was due - when it was announced as coming in on Platform 1. A steep flight of stairs down (or wait for the lift), through the subway and a steep flight of stairs up (or wait for the lift). I'm an old lady with dodgy knees - and I only just made it! If I had missed it, it would have added a further half hour minimum to my delay. I hate changing at Basingstoke, they have form for these last minute platform changes. And like others, I wonder why the change and why the last-minute communication?

It’s unusual for Winchester bound trains to be booked through platform 3. Would I be correct in guessing it was a Cross Country service? It all depends on whether there are any other late running services in the area at the time. It might be that there was a London bound service that was also booked to pass through platform 3, and the signaller thought it would be better all round for your train to change to platform 1.

Basingstoke ASC are actually one of the better boxes when it comes to regulating and communication with the station team.

 

[jfollows]

Manchester Oxford Road used to be appalling for this (it used to be my local station too); in the up direction the platform indicators would show a train departing from platform 4 and as the train appeared would change to platform 3. Assuming you noticed this you had to rush over the footbridge where you were met with hordes of people coming off the train and up the footbridge stairs as you tried to force your way past them down the stairs to avoid missing the train. Last time (a few years ago) I sat underneath the sign saying "Wilmslow" on platform 4 and the same thing happened, and - following my stroke - I'm less mobile than I used to be, and I only just made the train. Totally inconsiderate and thoughtless behaviour by someone hiding away (in the tower at Piccadilly station I think).

 

[Kite159]

A side effect of a station being known for late notice platform changes is that passengers who know about the possibility of a late notice swap will stay by the entrance/close to the stairs rather than moving along the platform to spread loadings.

 

[Master29]

A side effect of a station being known for late notice platform changes is that passengers who know about the possibility of a late notice swap will stay by the entrance/close to the stairs rather than moving along the platform to spread loadings.

Indeed, and often clog up the entrance areas and around ticket barriers, thus ensuring the usual charge toward stairwells when the platform is announced.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Are there no station staff there? Can't they keep an eye on what the trains are doing so they can shepherd the passengers around without the need for rushing?

 

[Llanigraham]

Manchester Oxford Road used to be appalling for this (it used to be my local station too); in the up direction the platform indicators would show a train departing from platform 4 and as the train appeared would change to platform 3. Assuming you noticed this you had to rush over the footbridge where you were met with hordes of people coming off the train and up the footbridge stairs as you tried to force your way past them down the stairs to avoid missing the train. Last time (a few years ago) I sat underneath the sign saying "Wilmslow" on platform 4 and the same thing happened, and - following my stroke - I'm less mobile than I used to be, and I only just made the train. Totally inconsiderate and thoughtless behaviour by someone hiding away (in the tower at Piccadilly station I think).

I am sure that the SIGNALLERS are looking at the much bigger picture, not just at one station and one train.

 

[sjm77]

Manchester Oxford Road used to be appalling for this (it used to be my local station too); in the up direction the platform indicators would show a train departing from platform 4 and as the train appeared would change to platform 3. Assuming you noticed this you had to rush over the footbridge where you were met with hordes of people coming off the train and up the footbridge stairs as you tried to force your way past them down the stairs to avoid missing the train. Last time (a few years ago) I sat underneath the sign saying "Wilmslow" on platform 4 and the same thing happened, and - following my stroke - I'm less mobile than I used to be, and I only just made the train. Totally inconsiderate and thoughtless behaviour by someone hiding away (in the tower at Piccadilly station I think).

I have witnessed this too. Sometimes the preceeding train does not clear P4 before the following train trundles through Deansgate towards a signal check, and so a well intentioned switch is made by the signaller withpout thinking practicalites on the ground. Often there is no immediate announcement and then there is the crush on the stairwell that you describe when people realise what is happening. To be fair I have seen the platform staff give ample time for everybody to cross the bridge with their luggage etc but this actually causes a delay! Therefore the well intended platform switch by the signaller gives ZERO time saving whatsoever and becomes a totally futile and pointless gesture.

 

[Horizon22]

Customer management is really where control need to be making sure there's clear communication. I feel for them, just as I sympathise with the passengers (I've had a nearly identical experience at York), but the signallers in this situation are trying to get the service back on time.

Sometimes you just don't know. You're looking at a map and then bam - route is given and you've got to try and get people across. Some through stations you might get less than 60 seconds awareness. Some stations might have a good relationship with the signaller and get a call, but other times there might be multiple routes available and with no call. At terminals its obviously a lot easier but there's no easy answer here if the signaller is dealing with several issues at once and the aim is to not unnecessarily delay services outside stations.

 

[jfollows]

I have witnessed this too. Sometimes the preceeding train does not clear P4 before the following train trundles through Deansgate towards a signal check, and so a well intentioned switch is made by the signaller withpout thinking practicalites on the ground. Often there is no immediate announcement and then there is the crush on the stairwell that you describe when people realise what is happening. To be fair I have seen the platform staff give ample time for everybody to cross the bridge with their luggage etc but this actually causes a delay! Therefore the well intended platform switch by the signaller gives ZERO time saving whatsoever and becomes a totally futile and pointless gesture.

Yes, and sometimes there's a reason as you describe, but on the specific occasion I experienced:

1. there was no train in platform 4 and no train had just left platform 4, it was quite late in the evening
2. no accommodation appeared to be made for people struggling over the footbridge, I only just made it onto the train before the doors closed and it left
3. there were no platform staff as far as I could see, although of course there had to be some

 

[Horizon22]

Are there no station staff there? Can't they keep an eye on what the trains are doing so they can shepherd the passengers around without the need for rushing?

Not every station has someone looking at a map 24/7 (and even if there was a control point / info point / controller you can't gurantee they are fixed on that screen constantly).

 

[Parallel]

Shrewsbury is unfortunately another station where last minute platform alterations cause issues. I’ve been on a rather busy Platform 3 before when a platform change was announced as the train was literally rolling into Platform 4 - This created a stampede on the stairs and someone tripped over a suitcase. The gateline staff initially didn’t open the gates either which created congestion. I think they train then eventually departed Platform 4 about 7 minutes late.

 

[sjm77]

I am sure that the SIGNALLERS are looking at the much bigger picture, not just at one station and one train.

I am 100% sure that you are correct. The following train is replatformed at short notice to save 30 seconds and maybe reduce an upcoming conflict at Ardwick or Slade Lane Jcn etc. However, if the platform staff give people time to cross the bridge then the 30 second saving never materilises! This is the point.

 

[Horizon22]

I am 100% sure that you are correct. The following train is replatformed at short notice to save 30 seconds and maybe reduce an upcoming conflict at Ardwick or Slade Lane Jcn etc. However, if the platform staff give people time to cross the bridge then the 30 second saving never materilises! This is the point.

The platform staff often know as soon as the average passenger does. The timetable has the booked platforms in it, and that is what is on the information screens. Until you here "this is a platform alteration...", nobody is any the wiser unless a) there's a call from a signaller, b) someone is looking at a rail map, c) if a) and b) are following up with a prompt announcement.

 

[jon0844]

It should be possible, although I have no idea how expensive it would be implement, to use the signalling data that feeds sites like OTT, and work out platform alterations as soon as a route is set.

Take Finsbury Park. Once the signaller has set the route and you see the green line, there's no need for the station CIS to wait until the train is in the platform berth to announce (as is currently the case).

That can give a lot more time to advise people automatically of the change, without the signaller needing to notify anyone when probably busy doing other things (like working out platform alterations to keep a service moving). Nor does it require staff to sit glued to a screen to spot the change in advance, potentially not doing other duties in the process.

 

[Horizon22]

It should be possible, although I have no idea how expensive it would be implement, to use the signalling data that feeds sites like OTT, and work out platform alterations as soon as a route is set.

Take Finsbury Park. Once the signaller has set the route and you see the green line, there's no need for the station CIS to wait until the train is in the platform berth to announce (as is currently the case).

That can give a lot more time to advise people automatically of the change, without the signaller needing to notify anyone when probably busy doing other things (like working out platform alterations to keep a service moving). Nor does it require staff to sit glued to a screen to spot the change in advance, potentially not doing other duties in the process.

It can be - but often the route being set into the platform is at the very last signal.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Getting back to the OP's original example of Havant, seeking opinions, this is a less than ideal location for altered working. There are only two (flank) platforms, with no bays or turn back sidings anywhere near. These platforms are both signalled for operation of through trains or turn backs in either direction. There is only one bridge.

During the engineering blockade between Havant and Haselmere the Southern 'Coastway' services could operate broadly normally but South Western were only operating a supporting shuttle between Portsmouth and Havant to provide enough capacity and to connect with replacement bus services. Havant doesn't normally have to deal with turnbacks. Obviously any late running or extended dwells can throw even the most carefully crafted plan in the bin. E.g. a delayed SWR turnback in either platform can require a Southern train to be diverted to run 'wrong direction' through the remaining platform.

In such circumstances (especially pre-planned and mid-week) it is necessary to have a serious station management plan to cover all aspects of the changes. This must range from stations forecourt and car park changes to deal with buses, parking for reserve vehicles, signage, refreshments for additional passengers, proper local 'live' announcements (not relying on automatic ones), assistance with luggage, etc. These arrangements will largely be made by the train operator(s).

In addition there need to be clear protocols for direct communication between the station and Network Rail signalbox (which will not be necessary in normal circumstances). This may well need additional staff cover for comm's in the signalbox. Obviously there will be short-notice emerging issues on the ground - bus arriving just before a booked departure and spilling a whole load of passengers shortly before a booked train departure time; more disabled passengers needing ramp assistance; and so on.

It's never going to be perfect but definitely needs to be managed and not left for normal levels of staffing to muddle through on the day.

[Written as a former South Western Division Station Manager who has been through similar situations, albeit getting on for 40 years ago.]

 

[jon0844]

It can be - but often the route being set into the platform is at the very last signal.

Yes, it won't work all the time (and at every location) but at the very least it can give more seconds (and often many minutes when the route is set following a platform being occupied for longer than expected).

Clearly if the booked platform is occupied or hasn't got the road for some reason, you can begin to prepare for a platform alteration if one would be possible for that service.

 

[ComUtoR]

It should be possible, although I have no idea how expensive it would be implement, to use the signalling data that feeds sites like OTT, and work out platform alterations as soon as a route is set.

Routes being set and signals being cleared are different sets of data and sometimes a route is set, then changed at the last minute. many many times I've sat on a signal and watched the points change. I'm not sure how this would affect platform changes or the data feeds but it might give confusing information.

 

[jfollows]

It should be possible, although I have no idea how expensive it would be implement, to use the signalling data that feeds sites like OTT, and work out platform alterations as soon as a route is set.

Yes, clearly in the specific case I mention at Manchester Oxford Road the route into the up platform is set from MP458 at Deansgate station, yet the platform indicators didn't (don't?) change until much later than the route was set. If the indicators matched the route set it would be much less of a problem.

 

[Taunton]

The platform staff often know as soon as the average passenger does. The timetable has the booked platforms in it, and that is what is on the information screens.

However, what the platform staff do then have a responsibility for is dispatching the train adequately. Isn't that why they are there? What are the instructions when passengers are suddenly having to make their way across between platforms? Do the staff have to see they have all made it over? Or do they slam the train doors in their faces and send it off?

Experience at East Croydon was at a time of gross disorganisation, trying to get to Redhill, where not only is the final destination shown of little consequence, but even for trains booked through there they are subject to last-moment diversion via the Quarry Line. The most effective thing to do was wait on the north end footbridge looking north, and run down to each incoming train in turn. The platform screens all seemed stuck at about an hour previously, and there were no meaningful announcements There seemed others doing this.

One wonders why, in an age where everything is managed by a very substantially programmed computer system at the control centre, when a given train is actually signalled into a different platform than that booked (which we are told drives the platform screens) why appropriate screen changes and audio announcements of the change are not made. It's not computer programming rocket science to do so.

 

[Oxfordblues]

To take the example of Oxford Road: I wonder if opentraintimes could be developed as a user-friendly information system so that you could check the routeing of your train before heading to the booked platform? Gricers like me often use it to save unnecessary stairs-climbing!

 

[jfollows]

To take the example of Oxford Road: I wonder if opentraintimes could be developed as a user-friendly information system so that you could check the routeing of your train before heading to the booked platform? Gricers like me often use it to save unnecessary stairs-climbing!

Open Train Times already gives the information indirectly at https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/man1, but it's not always convenient to look this up when you're waiting for a train. Attached diagram (from just now) shows 2A98 (12:27 Liverpool Lime Street to Crewe) routed into platform 4, before 2A98 has left Deansgate.

 

[jon0844]

Routes being set and signals being cleared are different sets of data and sometimes a route is set, then changed at the last minute. many many times I've sat on a signal and watched the points change. I'm not sure how this would affect platform changes or the data feeds but it might give confusing information.

Yes, there would need to be some checks in that a route can be set and changed multiple times, but once the signal is set to proceed then it's not being taken back (at least unless the train is a long way back and it wouldn't lead to a change of aspect that could impact the driver).

As you say, these are different systems, but it should be possible to take the open data from Network Rail and use it to feed into the CIS software to give an earlier warning. I strongly suspect it won't, but there we are.

And in answer to another poster mentioning dispatch of trains; clearly if staff have to change platform also then it would be easier to hold the train, but at most stations now the trains will self-dispatch, so the train arrives and departs regardless of where the passengers are.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Oct 2022 ==

Open Train Times already gives the information indirectly at https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/man1, but it's not always convenient to look this up when you're waiting for a train. Attached diagram (from just now) shows 2A98 routed into platform 4, before 2A98 has left Deansgate.

View attachment 122824

I have no idea about the station layout, but looking at this example image, if the train is booked to come in on platform 3 then currently it will only announce the change when the train is showing in the berth of platform 4. (edited; wrote platform 5 by mistake!)

If there was a link from the above data, it could already be showing the platform alteration now.

 

[jfollows]

I have no idea about the station layout, but looking at this example image, if the train is booked to come in on platform 3 then currently it will only announce the change when the train is showing in the berth of platform 4.

If there was a link from the above data, it could already be showing the platform alteration now.

Yes, that would appear to be the reason here, that the platform indicators display the booked platform and only change when a different platform berth is occupied, which in the case of Manchester Oxford Road is very much at the last minute when changing from booked platform 4 to platform 3.
It's clear from the information in the signalling system that the platform change is determined earlier, but the platform indicator systems don't know this.
Maybe next time I'm in the same situation I'll use OTT from my phone just in case.
If it's the other way round, IE booked platform 3, then it's easier to wait at the down end of platform 3 and see the way the points are set and the train is moving. Last time I was there, a couple of months ago, the up train was routed into and through platform 1, but I was able to spot this well in advance from my vantage point and was able to head to the footbridge in good time.