Last trains to Liverpool

[Grumpy Git]

As a resident of Liverpool for the last 25+ years, it always annoys me how difficult it is to get a 'late' train back home from somewhere I consider relatively nearby.

I'm a keen football fan (not of any Merseyside teams I should add) and like to go to as many away games as possible in a season and always using the train. When there is an evening midweek game, it is virtually impossible to see a full 90 minutes if travelling by train. You need a service departing after 22:00 to be sure of seeing the full match.

I offer the following examples where I have had to miss a good part of the second-half of a 'relatively local' game in order to get home:

Burnley (58 miles by road) - Last train - 21:39 (Burnley Manchester Road via Manchester Victoria), with a 'nice' 59 minute wait at MCV!
Blackburn (51 miles by road) - Last train 21:39 (Mill Hill via Preston)
Port Vale (52 miles by road) - Last train 21:05
Shrewsbury (67 miles by road) - Last train 21:46 (and a good stretch to the station)
Morecambe (74 miles by road) - Last train 21:48 (ditto)

In many cases there is a later train from the town (usually via Preston or Manchester), but this arrives at the intermediate station literally five minues after the last train to Liverpool, (or less than the minimum change period for the intermediate station).

The trains above have always been well populated, so there's plenty of demand from others. Has it always been this bad for Liverpool residents (at least compared to Manchester)?

 

[JonathanH]

Is this a gripe about poor connections or the arrival times of the last trains?

It doesn't help that the last train from Euston doesn't pick up at its stations north of Milton Keynes, where it leaves at 2241. Nominally arrives at 0047 but can run earlier if the line is clear.

The last arrivals basically depend on connections into the last train on each route. As you note, part of the issue is connections.

2317 from Birmingham New Street (2134) via Crewe (2232)
2342 from Blackpool North (2217) via Preston (2242)
2345 from Chester (2301) via Hooton
0026 from Wilmslow (2243) via Manchester Airport (2307) and Earlestown
0044 from Manchester Oxford Road (2328) via Warrington Central (0005)

The Crewe arrival is the earliest close down because that train has to go back to Crewe for stabling. The others aren't much worse than last trains to other places.

How late do people want to be arriving back in Liverpool in the evening?

 

[Grumpy Git]

It's not about "how late do you want to arrive back", its about being able to have an evening out and still get back the same night.

 

[Nottingham59]

You need a service departing after 22:00 to be sure of seeing the full match.

That's why football matches should be at 3 o'clock on Saturday afternoon.

 

[Bevan Price]

That's why football matches should be at 3 o'clock on Saturday afternoon.

Football exists for the convenience of TV companies, not spectators who are rail passengers.

Yes, a lot of "last trains" are too early, especially on some Saturdays where late trains are often sacrificed to allow early starts for engineering possessions.

 

[JonathanH]

I am not quite sure what the original poster is looking for. The train timetables are seemingly not designed with football supporters flows in mind but generally do seem to allow local supporters to get home, if not those who travel from Liverpool.

 

[MontyP]

I am not quite sure what the original poster is looking for. The train timetables are seemingly not designed with football supporters flows in mind but generally do seem to allow local supporters to get home, if not those who travel from Liverpool.

I've been a regular user of rail services to get to/from football matches for 40 years, and it has always been the same for midweek evening games - there just isn't the demand late in the evenings back into major cities - the demand is typically outbound from major cities. Travelling back into London on midweek evenings after matches is only really possible from games in the south east at places like Ipswich, Brighton, Reading, Luton etc. Now that a lot of evening games kick off at 8pm and tend to finish later than they used to (VAR delays etc) then you need departures after 2230 to get home. I remember going to a Bournemouth v Leeds evening game a few years ago and having to leg it back to Pokesdown to catch the slowest train in the world back to Wimbledon - I think it stopped at every station!

 

[A S Leib]

Leaving the football aspect aside as it's not something I know about, for comparison the latest it's possible to depart at and get back to Newcastle the same night (using a Saturday for reference) is

• 22:02 from Carlisle
• 18:57 from Barrow via Cumbrian Coast (20:35 from Workington)
• 19:45 from Barrow via Lancaster
• 22:42 from Leeds
• 21:45 from Manchester Victoria
• 21:06 from Liverpool Lime Street
• 22:57 from York
• 21:00 from London King's Cross
• 21:30 from Middlesbrough via Durham Coast
• 22:25 from Middlesbrough via Darlington
• 20:56 from Edinburgh (for some reason the 18:40's the last Glasgow – Carlisle service via the WCML, at least that connects with a Tyne Valley service, but it's possible to get the 19:13 via Dumfries then the 22:02 Carlisle – Newcastle)
• 20:41 from Preston via Carlisle

 

[185]

The Crewe arrival is the earliest close down because that train has to go back to Crewe for stabling. The others aren't much worse than last trains to other places.

As you suggest, it all boils down to where staff and trains are based.

In fact, there is an 0012ish Avanti from Crewe to Liverpool which cannot be used as it is the set down only nonsense - something that should only be used to avert overcrowding. The train often passes with 30 passengers. This would provide far later connections from many places if forced to run as a normal service.

 

[JonathanH]

In fact, there is an 0012ish Avanti from Crewe to Liverpool which cannot be used as it is the set down only nonsense - something that should only be used to avert overcrowding. The train often passes with 30 passengers. This would provide far later connections from many places if forced to run as a normal service.

Yes. It is arguably primarily designated as set down only so that it can run early if engineering allowances aren't needed, and to avoid having to run replacement road transport if it needs to be diverted. However, that also has the awkward impact of not making it available for journeys at later points. It would be a helpful connection at Crewe if that was an open stop.

 

[DarloRich]

Leaving the football aspect aside as it's not something I know about, for comparison the latest it's possible to depart at and get back to Newcastle the same night (using a Saturday for reference) is

• 22:02 from Carlisle
• 18:57 from Barrow via Cumbrian Coast (20:35 from Workington)
• 19:45 from Barrow via Lancaster
• 22:42 from Leeds
• 21:45 from Manchester Victoria
• 21:06 from Liverpool Lime Street
• 22:57 from York
• 21:00 from London King's Cross
• 21:30 from Middlesbrough via Durham Coast
• 22:25 from Middlesbrough via Darlington
• 20:56 from Edinburgh (for some reason the 18:40's the last Glasgow – Carlisle service via the WCML, at least that connects with a Tyne Valley service, but it's possible to get the 19:13 via Dumfries then the 22:02 Carlisle – Newcastle)
• 20:41 from Preston via Carlisle

I suspect the answer is different the other way round especially on a Saturday!

 

[Grumpy Git]

I am not quite sure what the original poster is looking for. The train timetables are seemingly not designed with football supporters flows in mind but generally do seem to allow local supporters to get home, if not those who travel from Liverpool.

Not true for midweek games (i.e. evening kick-offs) if you live on Merseyside.

I'd be quite happy to have to divert via Manchester on the way home, but when the last train departs there five minutes before the ideal service from your where you've been, it's annoying (it also means a 55 minute wait when you've missed the majority of the second-half).

When travelling home late via Preston from Burnley/Blackburn, the EIGHT minute minimum connection time rules-out the last train, (unless you fancy risking the cost of a taxi back down the A59)!

 

[canary fan]

That's why football matches should be at 3 o'clock on Saturday afternoon.

This would be difficult as even with the season extending there are not 46 Saturdays in the season ( plus extra for cup games)