Last trains to be put into a non-GBR livery, and hence/also the last trains to be put into the GBR livery?

[RUK]

Despite the GBR livery having been introduced, some TOCs, not yet being nationalised, are still painting trains into non-GBR liveries, such as CrossCountry, GWR for the Class 175s, and EMR. I seem to recall reading that Northern are refurbishing trains into their current livery, despite being nationalised, because GBR livery hasn’t been introduced for them yet, I guess because their performance as a TOC means that they haven’t met the test for “earning” the re-branding yet. Can anyone think of any other examples?

What trains for TOCs which will become part of GBR do you think will be the last ones to receive a privatised, non-GBR livery? (This question excludes the possibility of a Bee Network livery, as well as those operators which won’t be getting the GBR livery - TfW, ScotRail, TfL’s London Overground (and the possibility of Class 717s transferring to them from Great Northern), Merseyrail, open access operators, freight operators, etc.)

Also, which trains do you think will be the last ones to receive GBR livery? I guess the answer to this could be different, because some of the trains currently being re-painted into different liveries could be withdrawn before they ever get re-painted into GBR livery (such as Northern’s Sprinters, etc.)

 

[172007]

Class 08 perhaps. Not mainline, tucked away in a depot.Tyseleys 08 is still in London Midland Livery for example and i can't see it getting WM or GBR livery ever.

 

[Solent_Desiro]

GBR doesn't even legally exist yet, they may yet choose an alternative livery, they may decide to bring back the Intercity brand...

 

[Flange Squeal]

Despite the GBR livery having been introduced, some TOCs, not yet being nationalised, are still painting trains into non-GBR liveries, such as CrossCountry, GWR for the Class 175s, and EMR. I seem to recall reading that Northern are refurbishing trains into their current livery, despite being nationalised, because GBR livery hasn’t been introduced for them yet, I guess because their performance as a TOC means that they haven’t met the test for “earning” the re-branding yet. Can anyone think of any other examples?

SWR is nationalised and has a GBR liveried unit in its fleet, but a recently refurbished/repainted Class 159 emerged in SWR livery. I suspect possibly the plan/materials order predated the GBR livery rollout, and/or maybe they only really want newer stock to wear the GBR colours at this early stage rather than some 30+ year old diesel.

 

[RUK]

I hadn’t even considered locomotives! I had only considered multiple units.

 

[positron]

Perhaps it'll be the night Riviera that's the last to be rebranded?

I suspect most of the legacy fleet (sprinters, and maybe 175s) won't ever get GBRd.

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Some of the cross country 170s have very recently been rebranded so probably wont get GBRd for ages. Crosscountry is also absolutely awful and has a worse reputation than even Avanti now so until the train lengths are sorted I doubt the government wants them anywhere near GBR branding.

 

[styles]

The GWR Night Riviera would be my guess. I'm not even sure if they'll change it at all.

 

[Western Lord]

As has been stated, GBR does not actually exist at the moment. The "GBR" livery is just a DfT publicity stunt and there is no certainty that it will be adopted across the board. In any case there is absolutely no money available to needlessly re-livery every train in the country.

 

[positron]

People keep saying that but GBR is just going to be an "arms length" DfT puppet at this point. I strongly suspect that livery is it, aside from perhaps the writing on the side. As you say there's no spare money so do you really think they'd be wasting it on a livery that doesn't stick.

 

[eldomtom2]

The GWR Night Riviera would be my guess. I'm not even sure if they'll change it at all.

The Night Riviera is prestige enough to get it, in my opinion. It's the Sprinters where them ever receiving GBR livery is doubtful.

 

[styles]

The Night Riviera is prestige enough to get it, in my opinion. It's the Sprinters where them ever receiving GBR livery is doubtful.

My thinking is that the Night Riviera is a solid independent "brand" which they'll want to retain.

 

[JonathanH]

Given that the GBR livery seems likely to be applied using vinyl coverings in most cases, there is unlikely to be a direct link between the last train receiving a different livery and the last train vinyled.

On that basis, application could actually be quite quick, rather than having to wait for paint warranties to expire.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

My thinking is that the Night Riviera is a solid independent "brand" which they'll want to retain.

A new brand called Great British Hotels?
GBH for short

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I wonder why Southeastern haven’t started churning out GBR Electrostars and 707s en-masse? It would be so easy for them, particularly if they didn’t do the full vinyls yet and just painted the doors red when they went for maintenance. It’d be a start.

 

[eldomtom2]

My thinking is that the Night Riviera is a solid independent "brand" which they'll want to retain.

...but that doesn't mean it won't get GBR livery. After all, it doesn't have a special "Night Riviera" livery at the moment!

 

[Transilien]

My thinking is that the Night Riviera is a solid independent "brand" which they'll want to retain.

Isn’t GBR Sleeper a confirmed brand?

 

[styles]

Isn’t GBR Sleeper a confirmed brand?

Is it? I must have missed that! I'm not sure I'd really be in favour given it's not the only sleeper service in GB, and the Caledonian Sleeper isn't going to also rebrand to GBR Sleeper.

 

[positron]

Isn’t GBR Sleeper a confirmed brand?

I think that's still a rumour at this point. Given there is only one GBR sleeper for the foreseeable (knowing that Caledonian sleeper is separate), it kinda works. It's a bit odd if you've got multiple sleepers under the GBR brand.

Though they're apparently keeping Stansted express so Night Riviera could be kept.

 

[styles]

I think that's still a rumour at this point. Given there is only one GBR sleeper for the foreseeable (knowing that Caledonian sleeper is separate), it kinda works. It's a bit odd if you've got multiple sleepers under the GBR brand.

Though they're apparently keeping Stansted express so Night Riviera could be kept.

I think this is part of the problem I have with the GBR brand more generally. It excludes Caledonian Sleeper, ScotRail, Transport for Wales, and so it feels more like Great English Railways, though that's also a bit misleading because GBR branded services do venture into Scotland and Wales. It's also not to include Hull Trains, Lumo (west and east coast), Grand Central, Heathrow Express, Elizabeth Line, London Overground, London Underground, and Eurostar (though I'll accept this one). And apparently, Stansted Express.

That means that around half of all operators won't be adopting the brand.

It feels half-baked and a bit of a confused brand really.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I'd wager the Isle of Wight stock...

 

[RUK]

And apparently, Stansted Express.

It’ll still come under GBR - it’s just that it’ll apparently be “Great British Railways | Stansted Express”, like how it’s currently a separate brand to Greater Anglia, rather than being part of “Great British Railways | Anglia”.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It’ll still come under GBR - it’s just that it’ll apparently be “Great British Railways | Stansted Express”, rather than being part of GBR Anglia.

And yet I don’t remember there being a separate Gatwick Express on the list.

Mind you, that’s a disaster currently.

 

[styles]

It’ll still come under GBR - it’s just that it’ll apparently be “Great British Railways | Stansted Express”, rather than being part of GBR Anglia.

Well, that's certainly clear as mud

 

[positron]

I think this is part of the problem I have with the GBR brand more generally. It excludes Caledonian Sleeper, ScotRail, Transport for Wales, and so it feels more like Great English Railways, though that's also a bit misleading because GBR branded services do venture into Scotland and Wales. It's also not to include Hull Trains, Lumo (west and east coast), Grand Central, Heathrow Express, Elizabeth Line, London Overground, London Underground, and Eurostar (though I'll accept this one). And apparently, Stansted Express.

That means that around half of all operators won't be adopting the brand.

It feels half-baked and a bit of a confused brand really.

If you'll accept Eurostar then I think you'd have to accept the open access operators. I personally think they shouldn't exist but that's besides the point. I think I agree it should probably have been just a Transport for England brand. Or ScotRail and TfW should be heavily suggested to at least include the double arrow on their trains.

London underground and overground are more like Merseyrail or Tyne and Wear Metro or Glasgow Subway all of which also won't be GBR.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Thursday at 00:07 ==

I'd wager the Isle of Wight stock...

Relatively small fleet though so quite easy to relivery and get it done though.

 

[Transilien]

London underground and overground are more like Merseyrail or Tyne and Wear Metro or Glasgow Subway all of which also won't be GBR.

IMO, Merseyrail and London Overground should be a part of GBR, with the organisation taking the role of the current concession operator. London Underground, Tyne and Wear Metro and the Glasgow Subway are all mostly self-contained and have characteristics very different from the national rail network, therefore GBR wouldn’t be a suitable operator for these networks.

I think this is part of the problem I have with the GBR brand more generally. It excludes Caledonian Sleeper, ScotRail, Transport for Wales, and so it feels more like Great English Railways, though that's also a bit misleading because GBR branded services do venture into Scotland and Wales. It's also not to include Hull Trains, Lumo (west and east coast), Grand Central, Heathrow Express, Elizabeth Line, London Overground, London Underground, and Eurostar (though I'll accept this one). And apparently, Stansted Express.

That means that around half of all operators won't be adopting the brand.

It feels half-baked and a bit of a confused brand really.

It really does, I feel like GBR is another manifestation of 'Britain' meaning England. Despite GBR also running cross-border services, pretty much all of these services originate or end in England; most of the passengers on these routes will be travelling to or from England or ma˚ing 100 per cent of the journey in England. OBB, for example, doesn't need to change its name when it runs into Germany

 

[RUK]

At least personally, I think the addition of blue makes for a better livery than just red and white, as a Great English Railways would presumably have - blue shows less dirt than more white would have.

 

[positron]

Well if they went with a livery that wasn't based on the flag itself they'd avoid that issue.

Is there something that decides when they paint a train Vs when they vinyl it?

 

[swt_passenger]

People keep saying that but GBR is just going to be an "arms length" DfT puppet at this point. I strongly suspect that livery is it, aside from perhaps the writing on the side. As you say there's no spare money so do you really think they'd be wasting it on a livery that doesn't stick.

I don’t think it will be “arms length”, I think it will be micro managed. Whatever the PR guff says.

 

[RUK]

Is there something that decides when they paint a train Vs when they vinyl it?

Paint warranty length, and if re-painting is necessary. The Class 357s (in both the white-and-magenta Trenitalia c2c livery, and the GBR livery) have been re-painted because they had to have the paint stripped off for mid-life bodywork corrosion repairs anyway, so would need to be re-painted in any case - they were originally delivered in white with green LTS Rail doors, which was covered by purple and magenta c2c vinyls as their second livery, when that re-branding of the TOC happened, when Prism Rail was sold to/merged into National Express. The rest of the trains so far in GBR livery are much newer, so they don’t need re-painting, so they’re vinyled.

 

[Djgr]

I think this is part of the problem I have with the GBR brand more generally. It excludes Caledonian Sleeper, ScotRail, Transport for Wales, and so it feels more like Great English Railways, though that's also a bit misleading because GBR branded services do venture into Scotland and Wales. It's also not to include Hull Trains, Lumo (west and east coast), Grand Central, Heathrow Express, Elizabeth Line, London Overground, London Underground, and Eurostar (though I'll accept this one). And apparently, Stansted Express.

That means that around half of all operators won't be adopting the brand.

It feels half-baked and a bit of a confused brand really.

or Merseyrail

 

[Transilien]

I don’t think it will be “arms length”, I think it will be micro managed. Whatever the PR guff says.

The government is scared of changing the status quo, I.e improving things.