Last train from St Pancras to Derby - why so long?

[DerbySplitter]

Any experts out there able to explain why the 23.04 trains from STP to DBY takes a shade under 3 hours? This is Monday to Fridays.

I know it makes 7 stops, more than the usual number, but I still don't understand why it shouldn't take much more than 2 hours?

It's a bit of a pain not getting back to DBY until 02.00 after a potentially long day in London.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Isn't the 2304 St. Pancras to Derby routed a longer way round, via Corby and then Melton Mowbray and not via Market Harborough?

 

[Twingo37175]

Others will know better, but I would imagine 2 track railway south of Bedford (meaning pathed alongside Thameslink) plus a number of non-standard diversions further North including Oakham prior to reversal at Leicester

 

[swidnod]

Any experts out there able to explain why the 23.04 trains from STP to DBY takes a shade under 3 hours? This is Monday to Fridays.

I know it makes 7 stops, more than the usual number, but I still don't understand why it shouldn't take much more than 2 hours?

It's a bit of a pain not getting back to DBY until 02.00 after a potentially long day in London.

Its quite slow to Bedford due to running on the slow lines (65 minutes for 50 miles), but after that it routes via Corby and Oakham, reversing at Leicester, then on to Derby....enjoy the ride.

Later;
Swidnod

 

[DerbySplitter]

Reasonable explanations, but why route via Corby and Oakham? What's the reason?

Stops are Luton Airport Parkway, Wellingborough, Kettering and then Leicester.

I remember years ago it went into Nottingham then reversed out to Derby. That was frustrating.

I'm so used to the 90 minute or so trip down to STP, a late trip home taking twice as long is a bit annoying.

 

[Harpers Tate]

If it's this (or equivalent) then, yes, via Corby with a reverse at Leicester:

Realtime Trains | 1F87 2302 St Pancras International to Derby | 30/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 1F87 2302 departure from St Pancras International to Derby on 30/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

(screen print for when RTT goes out of date for this)

 

[The Planner]

Reasonable explanations, but why route via Corby and Oakham? What's the reason?

Stops are Luton Airport Parkway, Wellingborough, Kettering and then Leicester.

I remember years ago it went into Nottingham then reversed out to Derby. That was frustrating.

I'm so used to the 90 minute or so trip down to STP, a late trip home taking twice as long is a bit annoying.

Driver route retention.

 

[ivorytoast28]

Driver route retention.

That'll be the reason - but you do have to wonder whether there's a better way to do it given the length of this particular diversion and how late into the night that makes it

Would extending a Corby stopper earlier in the day and using a meridian/aurora as required be a better option?

 

[realemil]

but you do have to wonder whether there's a better way to do it given the length of this particular diversion and how late into the night that makes it

I imagine they choose to do it this time because the amount of traffic on the railway is low, and number of passengers effected isn't high.

 

[The Planner]

That'll be the reason - but you do have to wonder whether there's a better way to do it given the length of this particular diversion and how late into the night that makes it

Would extending a Corby stopper earlier in the day and using a meridian/aurora as required be a better option?

No idea, depends on EMR driver links I suspect.

 

[liamf656]

Would extending a Corby stopper earlier in the day and using a meridian/aurora as required be a better option?

This used to be the case, the 360 followed it ECS. Withdrawing it saved a unit in the middle of the day when we lost the 180s

 

[Merle Haggard]

There was a daily timetabled e.c.s. train that ran from Derby to St Pancras and back via Melton and also slow line South of Kettering but this has disappeared from RTT. I assumed it was route refreshing but it was a 222 when it ran, presumably at present one can't be spared.

That'll be the reason - but you do have to wonder whether there's a better way to do it given the length of this particular diversion and how late into the night that makes it

Would extending a Corby stopper earlier in the day and using a meridian/aurora as required be a better option?

There is a service, once a day in each direction, between Kettering and Melton (portion of a St Pancras service), 222 operated at the moment, that starts from or continues to Derby E.C.S.. Possibly worked by Derby crew so not of use fro St Pancras crew - but the train in the O.P. is also likely to be a Derby crew - don't think St Pancras have lodging turns nowadays

edited (italics) for clarity

 

[edwin_m]

I imagine they choose to do it this time because the amount of traffic on the railway is low, and number of passengers effected isn't high.

It might also allow a possession on the route via Market Harborough to start earlier without having to change the timetable.

 

[Watershed]

Possibly worked by Derby crew so not of use fro St Pancras crew - but the train in the O.P. is also likely to be a Derby crew - don't think St Pancras have lodging turns nowadays

edited (italics) for clarity

I've sure I've heard of some overnight diagrams that involve St Pancras - Derby on the last train and back on the first train with a ~3 hour kip in the mess room. Not sure if that is still the case but I can't see that there would be many other opportunities for St Pancras to run over the Manton route.

 

[liamf656]

I've sure I've heard of some overnight diagrams that involve St Pancras - Derby on the last train and back on the first train with a ~3 hour kip in the mess room. Not sure if that is still the case but I can't see that there would be many other opportunities for St Pancras to run over the Manton route.

Overnight turns definitely haven't been around post-covid. @baz962 may be able to answer that more in depth though

In regards to the original question, 1F87 and 1D88 (2304 and 2335 out of London respectively) are both timed for double track working from London to Bedford and are regularly put behind Thameslink trains. It's a long slog to Kettering but I like those two trips for their novelty.

Kettering to Leicester they are timed via Manton, I believe to make it easier for engineering works to be scheduled with electrification work, but ran that way regardless to keep route knowledge going. If one of them was delayed it would divert via Market Harborough to claw back time. In the Dec 2025 timetable they go via Manton a lot less often than they did

Touching on route knowledge, 5M17 runs St Pancras to Leicester and back via Manton, I can't remember who's booked on this but it may well be a Pancras driver. 1F87 and 1D88 mentioned above are both all Derby crew as is 1D99 (1835 London to Melton), and 1P22 (the morning counterpart which is also a Derby driver)

 

[Merle Haggard]

/snip

Touching on route knowledge, 5M17 runs St Pancras to Leicester and back via Manton, I can't remember who's booked on this but it may well be a Pancras driver. 1F87 and 1D88 mentioned above are both all Derby crew as is 1D99 (1835 London to Melton), and 1P22 (the morning counterpart which is also a Derby driver)

5M17 seems like the one I had in mind (also slow lines South of Kettering) but I couldn't find it on RTT in early January. It seems to have been 'cancelled - request of the train operator' regularly from at least November, which I took to be connected with the 222 shortage (222001/5 and later 222002 going off lease)

 

[baz962]

Overnight turns definitely haven't been around post-covid. @baz962 may be able to answer that more in depth though

In regards to the original question, 1F87 and 1D88 (2304 and 2335 out of London respectively) are both timed for double track working from London to Bedford and are regularly put behind Thameslink trains. It's a long slog to Kettering but I like those two trips for their novelty.

Kettering to Leicester they are timed via Manton, I believe to make it easier for engineering works to be scheduled with electrification work, but ran that way regardless to keep route knowledge going. If one of them was delayed it would divert via Market Harborough to claw back time. In the Dec 2025 timetable they go via Manton a lot less often than they did

Touching on route knowledge, 5M17 runs St Pancras to Leicester and back via Manton, I can't remember who's booked on this but it may well be a Pancras driver. 1F87 and 1D88 mentioned above are both all Derby crew as is 1D99 (1835 London to Melton), and 1P22 (the morning counterpart which is also a Derby driver)

No diagrams. On nights London drivers just shunt to Cricklewood for fueling etc. But we can drive the last trains going North if needed and then as it's within our time , we just hang around and get a train back in the morning. Last resort if no Derby driver.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jan 2026 ==

There was a daily timetabled e.c.s. train that ran from Derby to St Pancras and back via Melton and also slow line South of Kettering but this has disappeared from RTT. I assumed it was route refreshing but it was a 222 when it ran, presumably at present one can't be spared.




There is a service, once a day in each direction, between Kettering and Melton (portion of a St Pancras service), 222 operated at the moment, that starts from or continues to Derby E.C.S.. Possibly worked by Derby crew so not of use fro St Pancras crew - but the train in the O.P. is also likely to be a Derby crew - don't think St Pancras have lodging turns nowadays

edited (italics) for clarity

London have a training diagram round Manton and back. Four days a week .

 

[Merle Haggard]

/snip

London have a training diagram round Manton and back. Four days a week .

Thanks.
On my (roughly weekly) afternoon round trips down the Midland I usually saw this either while waiting at Wellingborough when it called on the Up Slow, or, if earlier, emerging onto the Up slow at Syston, always a 222. I found it in RTT but somehow mis-remembered it as being Derby-based. Presumably it also covers the Wymington deviation.
I haven't noticed for a while, though, maybe just the time I travel.

 

[WesternLancer]

That'll be the reason - but you do have to wonder whether there's a better way to do it given the length of this particular diversion and how late into the night that makes it

Would extending a Corby stopper earlier in the day and using a meridian/aurora as required be a better option?

If it was done at a more civilised time it would mean the citizens of Melton Mowbray could have a slightly more useful London direct train alongside the important driver route retention issue.

 

[edwin_m]

hat'll be the reason - but you do have to wonder whether there's a better way to do it given the length of this particular diversion and how late into the night that makes it

Would extending a Corby stopper earlier in the day and using a meridian/aurora as required be a better option?

If it was done at a more civilised time it would mean the citizens of Melton Mowbray could have a slightly more useful London direct train alongside the important driver route retention issue.

I think the problem here is that if it was done during the hours of "normal" service then it would take one diagram out and need another 222 to fill the gap, plus leaving a 360 formation at St Pancras and needing another one to work the return from Corby. Some of this could be resolved by splitting a double unit at St Pancras, but I guess most of them are working peak direction as double units so they will split at Nottingham or Sheffield or just go back to depot as doubles. Running it as the last working of the day means it can take longer and the only consequence is getting back to depot later.

 

[WesternLancer]

I think the problem here is that if it was done during the hours of "normal" service then it would take one diagram out and need another 222 to fill the gap, plus leaving a 360 formation at St Pancras and needing another one to work the return from Corby. Some of this could be resolved by splitting a double unit at St Pancras, but I guess most of them are working peak direction as double units so they will split at Nottingham or Sheffield or just go back to depot as doubles. Running it as the last working of the day means it can take longer and the only consequence is getting back to depot later.

Thanks. Can understand that in context of reducing numbers of meridians.

 

[edwin_m]

Thanks. Can understand that in context of reducing numbers of meridians.

I imagine this will continue even with all the 810s in service, unless possibly they split a double at the end of the morning peak and it can do the return journey before it's needed in the evening. But that still leaves the problem of at least one 360 set being in the wrong place, and would a middle-of-day journey be of any value for Melton?

 

[baz962]

If it was done at a more civilised time it would mean the citizens of Melton Mowbray could have a slightly more useful London direct train alongside the important driver route retention issue.

What is meant by more civilised , time wise. It currently leaves St Pancras at around 08.40 and gets back to London around 13.11. Lots of padding though.

 

[liamf656]

I imagine this will continue even with all the 810s in service, unless possibly they split a double at the end of the morning peak and it can do the return journey before it's needed in the evening. But that still leaves the problem of at least one 360 set being in the wrong place, and would a middle-of-day journey be of any value for Melton?

There used to be a STP to Melton 222 calling at all stations, leaving at 0945 I believe it was. The 360 followed to Corby ECS to make ensure it wasn't out of place, and similar happened for the return trip in the afteenoon. It used up quite a bit of resources and wasn't well used despite it being at a civilised time