Last minute fare increases?

[alexl92]

On Thursday evening, close to midnight, I used TPE's app to find details of all fares from London KX to Leeds for the following afternoon - yesterday/Friday.

I was looking for a one way standard class ticket for one person without a railcard, as a relative was planning to make this journey to come and visit me after a meeting, the exact end time of which was unknown at that stage.

The fares were (approximately) as follows -
£43 for the 13:05 and 13:35
£52 for the 14:05/:35
£77 for the 15:05/:35
£91 for the 16:06
£106 for the 16:35
and thereafter £119.50 for all services until the 19:03.

My relative went to buy a ticket at 14:05 (for the 14:35 train) at the ticket office and was charged £105; he was more than a little confused.

Rather than simply coming here for a rant, I wondered if someone could help me understand why the cost was effectively double what we expected when he went to buy the ticket ? Is it becuase it was such late notice, or because the website counts as an 'advance' booking?

Thanks very much

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's because on most TOCs the cut-off for discounted Advance tickets is midnight the day before (though on the day Advances are under trial in some places). Anything after that is the walk-up fare, wherever you buy it.

 

[Haywain]

Even where VTEC sell Advance tickets on the day of travel there is a 2 hour before departure cut-off, after which only walk-up fares are available.

 

[bb21]

Agreed. Buying half an hour before the train departed would have seen only walk-on fares being sold in your case.

No Advance fare is on sale on the day of travel, as a general rule, although some TOCs are starting to offer them now, but it is still very much the exception than the norm.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Agreed. Buying half an hour before the train departed would have seen only walk-on fares being sold in your case.

No Advance fare is on sale on the day of travel, as a general rule, although some TOCs are starting to offer them now, but it is still very much the exception than the norm.

Apart from at least VTEC, TPE and XC


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

[bb21]

None from station ticket offices I believe.

 

[All Line Rover]

Apart from at least VTEC, TPE and XC

Where the last-minute Advance fares are typically more expensive, or no more than 5% less expensive, than the appropriate walk-up flexible fare.

 

[BlueFox]

Where the last-minute Advance fares are typically more expensive, or no more than 5% less expensive, than the appropriate walk-up flexible fare.

That's not my experience with XC. The last time I bought a ticket on their app was from Stoke to Stockport, for £5.90 on the 17:20 on a Friday last month.
The walk up single fare would have been £13.50.
I bought the ticket about 90 minutes in advance.


I've also saved around 70% on a Berwick to Newcastle ticket, booked less than an hour in advance. That was an example where the availability of last minute advance tickets persuaded me to go by train when my original plan was to get the bus.

 

[yorkie]

This is correct; 105.20 is the lowest priced " walk up" single.

Never pay that! Always get a return as it's only £1 extra and you may find a use for it.

If you want to pay less than this, you need to book in advance. This is generally advertised as by 1800 the night before , but is often extended to 2359, and occasionally to a few hours or so before. All subject to availability, of course.

If you see a good value 'Advance' fare, buy it to avoid missing out.

 

[PeterC]

Ignoring, for a moment, the fact that purchase was on day of travel, I would have thought that with proper demand management there would be no reason for a fare to be the same 24 hours later.

 

[najaB]

Ignoring, for a moment, the fact that purchase was on day of travel, I would have thought that with proper demand management there would be no reason for a fare to be the same 24 hours later.

The railway is somewhat limited in yield management practices as compared to airlines in that they only have a limited number of predefined, pre-published fare points available.

 

[Paul Kelly]

The railway is somewhat limited in yield management practices as compared to airlines in that they only have a limited number of predefined, pre-published fare points available.

Airlines are limited to predefined, pre-published fares too, as has been discussed before: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2387863#12

If you use an airline price checking site like http://matrix.itasoftware.com/ and untick the option "Only show flights and prices with available seats", then you get to see all available price tiers in a vaguely similar way to what you see on http://www.brfares.com/.

Also I agree with BlueFox above that CrossCountry's on-the-day advance can offer very good discounts over the best available walkup fare on the same train. A journey I make sometimes is Stafford to Birmingham New Street, and even 10 minutes before the train departs I generally find nearly unlimited availability of £10.20 1st Class advance fares for travel on any CrossCountry train, when the cheapest standard walkup fare is 70p dearer at £10.90.

 

[najaB]

Airlines are limited to predefined, pre-published fares too, as has been discussed before...

The difference being that those are base fares, which few (if any) passengers actually pay. You just have to look at the fare differences for the same seat when it's sold by different alliance partners (e.g. a flight on a BA plane with a AA flight number vs the same seat with a BA flight number) or when they are sold through different websites to see it in action.

Other than service charges (for example Thetrainline) it doesn't matter where or how you buy your train ticket, it is going to cost the same.

 

[alistairlees]

Lots of TOCs are, or are planning to, offer Advance Purchase on the Day (APOD) now, following the perceived success of this with CrossCountry, which has been offering them for quite a few years now.

Some of this is driven by the DfT's "Action Plan" published in December last year:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...r-information-on-rail-fares-and-ticketing.pdf

This in turn was driven by lots of negative publicity about TVMs retailing the wrong tickets in summer 2016.

The action plan lists (see point 2 on page 5 in the green block) the following TOCs as implementing APOD about now (in addition to XC):
- Virgin Trains
- Virgin Trains West Coast
- TPE
- Northern
- EMT (by September)

Since then Grand Central and Greater Anglia have also started going through the process of setting these up.

There is an issue in that the fares data does not support the correct retailing of these (the fares data structure is designed to accommodate a specific date and time cut off for a fare, rather than a rolling horizon that changes as the train progresses), but hopefully that will be solved soon. Otherwise retailers will need each need to hack a solution, which is less than ideal, and will undoubtedly lead to unintended inconsistencies.

 

[sheff1]

Other than service charges (for example Thetrainline) it doesn't matter where or how you buy your train ticket, it is going to cost the same.

This is not true. On occasions, different sites simultaneously offer Advance fares for exactly the same journey at different prices.

It is also not unheard of for one site to offer no Advances at all for a particular journey, whilst another is selling them without problem. I once got a ticket from EMT for just over £3, when TPE wanted £17+ for the same itinerary.

 

[najaB]

This is not true. On occasions, different sites simultaneously offer Advance fares for exactly the same journey at different prices.

I should have been clearer - you're only going to be offered one of the fixed price points.

 

[Wallsendmag]

This is not true. On occasions, different sites simultaneously offer Advance fares for exactly the same journey at different prices.

It is also not unheard of for one site to offer no Advances at all for a particular journey, whilst another is selling them without problem. I once got a ticket from EMT for just over £3, when TPE wanted £17+ for the same itinerary.

Plus there are some TOC specific discounts such as VTECs Small Groups

 

[gray1404]

Correct me if I am wrong but I don't think Northern are offering on the day advances yet and when they do, it will only be through their app.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It's because on most TOCs the cut-off for discounted Advance tickets is midnight the day before (though on the day Advances are under trial in some places). Anything after that is the walk-up fare, wherever you buy it.

Whilst it is advertised as "Midnight the day before travel", many TOCs actually still have the old 1800 booking deadline, Northern apparently use it on their relatively recently introduced Advance fares.

None from station ticket offices I believe.

Some TPE tickets are available on the day from ticket offices, but companies like Northern have no interest in allowing ticket offices to issue their own "APOD" fares.

....Other than service charges (for example Thetrainline) it doesn't matter where or how you buy your train ticket, it is going to cost the same.

There are some fares which are only available from certain outlets, such as the SVH Off-Peak Singles (formerly Saver-Half), though this is still not a reason to use thesheepline.

Correct me if I am wrong but I don't think Northern are offering on the day advances yet and when they do, it will only be through their app.

It's for travel on or after the fares change, though I don't know when they actually start selling them (Northern staff don't need to know that apparently), and it is apparently via their app or website only (though as they use thesheepline for websales it'll probably be on there too, just like Virgin's SVH fares).

 

[gray1404]

At least they are going to allow you to book online and collect from a TVM. I use a windows phone so can't download any train ticket apps.

Anyone know when the next fare change is?

 

[Merseysider]

Anyone know when the next fare change is?

Next Monday.

 

[ManOnATrain]

I usually buy advance purchase tickets online and I don't agree that I have to have an account with a log in and password and they save all of my personal details on their database. I'd like to see a check-out where I just buy a ticket every time without logging in and them tracking my every journey.

Is is possible to buy an advance purchase ticket from the ticket office and get charged the same price as the one we see online?

 

[Merseysider]

I usually buy advance purchase tickets online and I don't agree that I have to have an account with a log in and password and they save all of my personal details on their database. I'd like to see a check-out where I just buy a ticket every time without logging in and them tracking my every journey.

That's fine until you need aftersales/customer support/a business account/automatic delay repay/notifications of special offers and discounts/Virgin Traveller/m-tickets/you lose your booking reference/need gift vouchers.

Is is possible to buy an advance purchase ticket from the ticket office and get charged the same price as the one we see online?

Normally. But most special offers (for example XC's 10% discount for NUS card holders) can only be obtained online and some APOD fares aren't set up to be retailed by booking offices at all.

 

[ManOnATrain]

That's fine until you need aftersales/customer support/a business account/automatic delay repay/notifications of special offers and discounts/Virgin Traveller/m-tickets/you lose your booking reference/need gift vouchers.

If I'm paying money for a service, then I'm entitled to use the aftersales/customer support to submit a complaint about the poor service I've received, regardless of whether or not they have my details on their database. Unfortunately, lots of companies won't register complaints without that information, even if you have proof of purchase. Fair enough, it's probably about stopping people submitting fake complaints. Why anyone would do so, I have no idea.

If I buy a ticket online, they can email me, but they don't need to know my name and address. Most card verification systems can easily confirm security with just the house number and the numerals from a post code, and certainly without storing the information. If they're not going to visit me, or send me a letter in the post then they don't need my address and I certainly don't want them to have it. I'd actually prefer a different way of cardholder verification, such as sending me back a small amount to the payment card (e.g. £0.01) and asking me to confirm the amount, thus proving that I have checked the account and I am the cardholder.

I mainly have an issue with Data Protection, since after I buy that ticket, they don't really have justification to store that information for what seems like indefinitely, *just in case* I decide to buy a ticket again one day in the future. If I don't want them hold my data, then I will have to contact them to ask to be removed from the database every time I buy a ticket (which might be once a year, or less).

I've had companies keep delivery addresses as far back as 2010, which in my eyes is a clear breach of data protection. They don't need to keep anything for that long. DPA states "as long as is necessary". If it is necessary for them to administer me a ticket, fair enough, but they should delete it immediately unless I have ticked a box to say that I want them to keep it. In the case of buying a train ticket online, I am forced to invent a username and password and they store my info forever.

 

[Scotty]

If I buy a ticket online, they can email me

Online if you give them the correct address.