Largest cities without a metro system

[Zoidberg]

More likely it was coasting.

No, what I saw was the tram stopping, dropping the pantograph while still under wires and then proceeding through the 'no wires' bit until it reached the terminal stop and raising the pantograph.

Before leaving the terminal stop the pantograph was dropped, the tram proceeded to the next (under wire) stop and raised the pantograph.

'twas like magic.

 

[edwin_m]

The Merseyrail system is part of the National Rail network, and does share the same track with other passenger trains at Bidston and Hunts Cross. It also has connections, albeit for empty stock movements, at several other locations (ie, Southport, Chester, Ellesmere Port)

The London Underground has a similar level of connectivity to the national network. With its intensive all-stations service and multiple closely-spaced sections in central Liverpool and Birkinhead I would agree with those who say Merseyrail is a metro in all but name.
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No, what I saw was the tram stopping, dropping the pantograph while still under wires and then proceeding through the 'no wires' bit until it reached the terminal stop and raising the pantograph.

Before leaving the terminal stop the pantograph was dropped, the tram proceeded to the next (under wire) stop and raised the pantograph.

'twas like magic.

I'm not sure about Seville but at least one French tramway uses batteries for this purpose. Another has the APS system, which is a third rail divided into short sections which are energised in turn, only when the tram is standing on top of them to avoid any risk of electric shock.

 

[Zoidberg]

... Another has the APS system, which is a third rail divided into short sections which are energised in turn, only when the tram is standing on top of them to avoid any risk of electric shock.

Awww, that's no fun

The Seville set-up didn't involve any additional conductors so it'll have been battery power.

 

[Mojo]

Zoidberg is correct, the section of the Seville Tramway between Plaza Nueva and Archivo de Indias stops, past the Cathedral is operated in battery mode. Certainly isn't coasting, else the trams wouldn't get very far when departing from either stop!

 

[MK Tom]

Nice is the system you're all trying to think of. It has two sections of battery-only running.

 

[Deerfold]

Don't mention the trolley buses, they make my blood boil and are a total waste of brass.

But it's (mostly) brass from Central Government that Leeds wouldn't get to spend on anything else...

And at least they won't be run by First.

(Mis)guided busways are even worse - total waste of £xx,xxx,xxx.xx

The one in Cambridge seems to be attracting new passengers even faster than anticipated (even with the overrun in its construction). I found the short ones in Leeds to be very useful at getting past stopped traffic.

Misguided is right - years ago in Newcastle I watched a trolley bus turn left - up a street without trolley wires.

Oops!

So because you once saw a problem with a Trolleybus system they're all bad?

 

[Zoidberg]

...

So because you once saw a problem with a Trolleybus system they're all bad?

Of course.

EDIT: But you did understand that my use of 'misguided' referred, as an attempt at humour, to the actions of the driver, misguiding the bus, didn't you?

 

[northwichcat]

Ahem. What's merseyrail then??

Suburban rail network?

Indeed. Look at many German cities which have a S-Bahn system which goes underground in the city centre but also have a U-Bahn system and a tram system. Liverpool only has the S-Bahn equivalent.

 

[starrymarkb]

And they are still building them.

Leipzig has the second largest tram network in Germany, and is about to get an underground S-Bahn tunnel through the city centre (opens next month). The city is about the size of Bristol!

Oh and there is only ONE city bus route in the centre (the 89), with a few routes from outlying towns terminating at the Hbf. Other routes feed/link the Tram radials

 

[northwichcat]

Leipzig has the second largest tram network in Germany, and is about to get an underground S-Bahn tunnel through the city centre (opens next month). The city is about the size of Bristol!

Leipzig also cascaded it's old trams to the capital (Berlin) which seems to be the opposite of what we do in this country where there are many old London buses and trains in different parts of the country (plus the old LU stock on the Isle of Wight.)

 

[Tetchytyke]

Trolleybuses are a waste of time, they provide no additional benefit over diesel or diesel-hybrid buses but they cost a bloody fortune to install.

As for the guided busways in Leeds and Bradford, they don't do anything a normal bus lane couldn't do (and in the case of the Selby Road busway, they do less: the Harrogate & District and Arriva Selby buses can't use it).

 

[northwichcat]

Trolleybuses are a waste of time, they provide no additional benefit over diesel or diesel-hybrid buses but they cost a bloody fortune to install.

Pollution?

 

[Deerfold]

As for the guided busways in Leeds and Bradford, they don't do anything a normal bus lane couldn't do (and in the case of the Selby Road busway, they do less: the Harrogate & District and Arriva Selby buses can't use it).

They physically stop cars using them.

 

[edwin_m]

Pollution?

Some benefit but fairly small and decreasing as diesel buses get "greener" and hybrids become more widespread. Really trolleybuses have very little to recommend them except perhaps in places with steep hills and major local pollution problems.

 

[Deerfold]

Really trolleybuses have very little to recommend them except perhaps in places with steep hills and major local pollution problems.

Doesn't Headingly have very poor local air quality?

http://uk-air.defra.gov.uk/interactive-map?region_id=17

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Trolleybuses are a waste of time, they provide no additional benefit over diesel or diesel-hybrid buses but they cost a bloody fortune to install.
As for the guided busways in Leeds and Bradford, they don't do anything a normal bus lane couldn't do (and in the case of the Selby Road busway, they do less: the Harrogate & District and Arriva Selby buses can't use it).

I've less of a problem with small-scale busways like the ones in Leeds and Bradford than ridiculously overblown things like Cambridge-St. Ives has and Leigh and Luton-Dunstable is about to get. Ridership might well be rising on the Cambridge busway but it ended up costing pretty as much as a light-rail system would have- and I'd have been prepared to put my next paycheque on a rail-based system to at least match the ridership of the busway, if there was any way of making a comparison.

Presumably the reason Transdev & Arriva can't use the busways is that for some reason their management doesn't consider it worthwhile to fit guidewheels to their vehicles. As far as I'm aware FirstGroup don't have exclusive rights (though I'm happy to be corrected by anyone in the know).

 

[starrymarkb]

Leipzig also cascaded it's old trams to the capital (Berlin) which seems to be the opposite of what we do in this country where there are many old London buses and trains in different parts of the country (plus the old LU stock on the Isle of Wight.)

Ah so that's where the Tatra T6Ds went! I thought they'd had their traction gear robbed for Leoliners (a Tram built by the LVB in it's workshops). Interesting that they dumped the T6D's when the city is still using much older T4Ds in regular service (with a modern Low Floor Trailer for wheelchair access)

 

[Deerfold]

I've less of a problem with small-scale busways like the ones in Leeds and Bradford than ridiculously overblown things like Cambridge-St. Ives has and Leigh and Luton-Dunstable is about to get. Ridership might well be rising on the Cambridge busway but it ended up costing pretty as much as a light-rail system would have- and I'd have been prepared to put my next paycheque on a rail-based system to at least match the ridership of the busway, if there was any way of making a comparison.

Presumably the reason Transdev & Arriva can't use the busways is that for some reason their management doesn't consider it worthwhile to fit guidewheels to their vehicles. As far as I'm aware FirstGroup don't have exclusive rights (though I'm happy to be corrected by anyone in the know).

There were construction problems, disputes and overruns on the system. Obviously it could have been better managed - these things are not unique to busways. I might as well say we shouldn't have trams after Edinburgh.

I'm afraid I don't know how much a rail-based solution would have cost in Cambridge, but having tried it before and after the busway there's a world of difference in the pleasure of the journey.

As far as I know anyone can use the West Yorkshire busways, subject to a check on the buses used (and drivers having to have periodic tests on operation, largely to ensure the guidewheels not puching the bus away from the kerb outside of a busway).

 

[Zoidberg]

There were construction problems, disputes and overruns on the system. Obviously it could have been better managed - these things are not unique to busways. I might as well say we shouldn't have trams after Edinburgh.

...

A view held by many (including me) - although the plus side is that the short stretch of guided busway which existed in Edinburgh has been done away with, now being part of the WET (White Elephant Tramway).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There were construction problems, disputes and overruns on the system. Obviously it could have been better managed - these things are not unique to busways. I might as well say we shouldn't have trams after Edinburgh.

A good point, well made. Though buses will never encourage modal shift to the level trains or trams will. The problem I have with the Cambridge and Luton busways is that they have both destroyed previously mothballed/safeguarded rail routes. Though as you say the Edinburgh fiasco hasn't made it any easier for the likes of Leeds and Liverpool to try to revive their stalled tramway projects- hence the 'consolation prizes' of the FTR and proposed trolleybuses.

When was the last time a major transport project was actually completed on or under budget? HS1, possibly?

 

[northwichcat]

Ah so that's where the Tatra T6Ds went! I thought they'd had their traction gear robbed for Leoliners (a Tram built by the LVB in it's workshops). Interesting that they dumped the T6D's when the city is still using much older T4Ds in regular service (with a modern Low Floor Trailer for wheelchair access)

I was actually thinking of the 1976 build of the KT4D which went to Berlin quite a while ago.

I think BVG are looking to move towards all trams in Berlin becoming Bombardier Flexity over the next few years to meet accessibility requirements instead of modifying old trams.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There's an argument that Trolleybuses will displace pollution, but unless you know of a pollution-free power station they certainly don't get rid of it.

As for the busways in West Yorkshire preventing cars using them, Nexus managed to achieve the same thing on Gateshead Quays with a rising bollard. I'm not aware of the Runcorn busway or the East London Transit have problems with cars travelling down them.

 

[northwichcat]

As for the busways in West Yorkshire preventing cars using them, Nexus managed to achieve the same thing on Gateshead Quays with a rising bollard. I'm not aware of the Runcorn busway or the East London Transit have problems with cars travelling down them.

When rising bollards were first installed in Manchester some drivers tailgated the Metroshuttle buses that they were lowered for and it resulted in things like:
http://i4.manchestereveningnews.co....image_list_image_list_item_0_image-568008.jpg
and
http://i1.manchestereveningnews.co....image_list_image_list_item_0_image-491092.jpg

They even got a bus the bollards should have remained down for:
http://i2.manchestereveningnews.co....image_list_image_list_item_0_image-539321.jpg

 

[Deerfold]

There's an argument that Trolleybuses will displace pollution, but unless you know of a pollution-free power station they certainly don't get rid of it.

As for the busways in West Yorkshire preventing cars using them, Nexus managed to achieve the same thing on Gateshead Quays with a rising bollard. I'm not aware of the Runcorn busway or the East London Transit have problems with cars travelling down them.

Buses have to slow down rather more and wait for the bollard to lower - I was suprised by just how long this took in York at the weekend.

I'm not familiar with Runcorn or the ELT in any detail but I've seen plenty of cars in standard bus lanes, including in London.

 

[Eagle]

I'm not familiar with Runcorn or the ELT in any detail but I've seen plenty of cars in standard bus lanes, including in London.

Are you sure they're not part-time bus lanes?

 

[Deerfold]

Are you sure they're not part-time bus lanes?

Quite sure. Sometimes it's only briefly before a junction, but it's definitely before the lane ends and they're mostly 24-hour ones.

Here: https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=ki...oid=Zuh9grf7LiWM-lG3PqPA5A&cbp=12,359.11,,0,0

I was splashed by a lorry in the nearside lane whilst standing at this bus stop.

This one is a part-time bus lane but it was during the evening peak.

 

[Mojo]

Nice is the system you're all trying to think of. It has two sections of battery-only running.

No, it's definitely Seville.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yeah I'm aware of Merseyrail's status as part of the national network. What I'm saying is why isn't it broken off and made into a full-blown metro?

Because when the local authority was given the opportunity they did the sums and decided the costs of maintaining the infrastructure were out of their reach.
I got the impression DfT would have been happy to give it away...

Apart form that the local trade unions objected...

 

[fowler9]

Speaking of Trolleybuses I loved the ones in Valparaiso. I don't think a single one of them was less than about 40 years old. Not a sensible modern solution in my opinion bus they were lots of fun. The ones in Wellington were fun though.

 

[starrymarkb]

Seville Tram
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xhnmOTjwPA

You'll see the pan drop just before it starts to move