Large group budget operations

[Russel]

Not wanting to take over the East Yorkshire thread with this so starting a new one.

I have family in Clacton On Sea so visit a few times a year, I also enjoy couple of visits to Bridlington and Scarborough a year so I get to witness two Go-Ahead operations at different ends of the spectrum.

Hedingham is very much a budget operation running a fleet of cascaded buses of various vintage, none of which look very cared for and time keeping/punctuality can be described as sloppy at best. It's very reminiscent of the Rotala operations in the midlands 10 years ago.

During a recent visit, I counted 7 different liveries.

Hedingham old
Hedingham new
Carousel
East Yorkshire
Go North East
London Red
Konectbus

East Yorkshire on the other hand, always turn out a presentable fleet of modern buses, generally in the latest East Yorkshire livery with smart route branding.

Is there any where else where there is such an obvious difference in standards within one of the bigger groups?

 

[Simon75]

Stagecoach with Magic Bus in Manchester (not sure if it still operates)

 

[transportphoto]

Stagecoach with Magic Bus in Manchester (not sure if it still operates)

This set up was specifically a budget operation aimed at students which ran alongside the normal operations in the same area. I’d be inclined to suggest this isn’t quite the same as what the Op is looking for.

 

[GusB]

This set up was specifically a budget operation aimed at students which ran alongside the normal operations in the same area. I’d be inclined to suggest this isn’t quite the same as what the Op is looking for.

Magicbus was originally introduced in Glasgow in order to compete with Scottish Bus Group companies. While Stagecoach wasn't as large a group as it is now, it was certainly competing against one!

 

[LAIRA]

Come to Plymouth to see what is probably not classed as a budget operation but certainly looks it. It operates 92 70/20 reg buses suppiled new but not many are seen on the streets of Plymouth, they mainly operate in Cornwall. Plymouth Citybus operate 112 second hand buses
5 X 56 reg E200 ex East Yorkshire
2 X 07 reg E200 ex London General
2 X 59 reg short E200 ex First London
1 X 05 reg Mini Dart ex London General
16 X 18reg Mini E200 ex First Kernow (actually owned by Cornwall County Council)
11 X 64reg E200 ex London General (with ghastly gearboxes)
2 X 16 reg E200 ex London General
2 X 15/16 reg Merc Minibuses ex Go Ahead Sutton
13 X 62/13 reg MAN Ecocity gas buses ex Go Ahead Essex
16 X 06 reg E400 ex London General
7 X 64 reg E400 ex Stagecoach London
17 X 54 reg Scania N94UD ex Brighton
14 X 07 reg E400 ex London General (currently under conversion to single door)
4 X 56 reg E400 ex London General still 2 door still in London red

Now just arriving up to 15 SoloSR ex Go North East (not yet in service).

The newest buses running in Plymouth are 69 reg E400Citys so are now 3 years old.

Looks very much a budget operation to me

 

[jammy36]

The newest buses running in Plymouth are 69 reg E400Citys so are now 3 years old.

The Enviro 400 Citys were delivered in Nov/Dec 2019. I wonder if anything might have happened in early 2020 to have caused Plymouth Citybus (along with many, many others) to pause the intake of new vehicles ...?

Taking Euro 6 converted vehicles from London and select others from elsewhere in the group seems a pragmatic response given the circumstances the industry faces.

Other companies are only now starting to meaningfully commit to new vehicle orders (without contract/grant funding). Perhaps, let's wait and see if Plymouth receives any new vehicles in 2023/4.

 

[asb]

The last I saw of magic bus in Manchester, it looked very smart, so definitely not what the OP intended.

 

[Lewisham2221]

A few years back, Arriva purchased Stoke-on-Trent independent Wardle Transport. At the time I believe they operated a number of council tendered services and social services minibus contracts. They then went on to purchase the Stoke-on-Trent operations of D&G Bus, operating under the Wardle Transport banner. Both operations had red based livery and initially most original Wardle continued in existing livery and former D&G buses had white Wardle Transport vinyls stuck over the D&G fleet names. Then they began to paint a handful of vehicles in a red version of Arriva livery (similar to the former London colour scheme), before they began to transfer in large numbers of Arriva liveried Darts to replace/standardise parts of the fleet. There was never much in the way of driver uniform, publicity, joined up thinking and network planning etc that you would expect from a large "corporate" group operation. Ironically, after only a couple of years, the whole operation was sold back to D&G, with part of the deal requiring Arriva to repaint all of the vehicles back into D&G livery before handover.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Dec 2022 ==

The last I saw of magic bus in Manchester, it looked very smart, so definitely not what the OP intended.

It's definitely far more of a route branding exercise these days, rather than a "budget" brand as in days gone by.

 

[Brooke]

There are a lot of tactics in the bigger groups where they deliberately use older buses for lower depreciation charges and/or use staff from depots with lower wage structures. This particularly where parts of the market is more price sensitive, so costs need to be tightly controlled.

Some examples:
- Magic Bus originally was exactly this in Scotland and then Manchester (as above)
- Megabus was a low cost competitor to National Express, creaming business on high volume, price sensitive routes
- The whole K-Line / Huddersfield Bus Co / Centrebus setup in Yorkshire gave Arriva a low cost unit in the area

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

In terms of the OPs original point, there are a few where the standards between group companies do differ. My personal choice is Rotala where they have some good operations, not least the Diamond North West which is much improved. Worcestershire/West Midlands is still uneven with newer stuff but plenty of now quite old Solos and Eclipses, but the worst is Hotel Hoppa. Used it two months ago and paying a premium fare for a poorly driven, battered e200 with threadbare seating, to catch a morning flight didn't resemble value for money; don't mind the premium fare for a decent service but the quality was simply appalling.

In terms of budget operations, MagicBus was also used in Newcastle by Stagecoach when HMB Buses went into competition. That said, pre-Stagecoach Busways had a number of low cost operations in order to either win tendered work (e.g. Blue Bus, Armstrong Galley Buses) or to fight competition from TMS (Favourite).

Seem to recall that Midland Red North had a Budget Bus operation in Crewe, and possibly elsewhere, but can't think who against. Mind you, there were all sorts of odd operations back in the day with Frontline Buses near Tamworth (Badgerline low cost subsidiary) operating to limit Stevensons growth into Worcestershire.

 

[90sWereBetter]

I think First Worcester is probably now the worst-performing First opco now that Scotland East has been sold off. Their fleet mostly comprises a motley selection of Citaros, some of which have just reached their 20th birthday, and most remain in First Berkshire's assortment of liveries. They also have two Volvo B7/Geminis which are still in Barbie livery, which must be the last vehicles anywhere in the First empire in this livery. To be fair, there was some investment in Streetlites and Streetdecks in the mid 2010s, but at least some of the Streelites have already departed to other pastures.

There's a renewed vigour to Potteries, Somerset and Essex with new and refurbished stock, and an emphasis on appearance with the new liveries.

Back in the 2000s, Western National and Eastern Counties were the dumping grounds for First, but both operations have been turned around for the better.

 

[volvob12]

I think First Worcester is probably now the worst-performing First opco now that Scotland East has been sold off. Their fleet mostly comprises a motley selection of Citaros, some of which have just reached their 20th birthday, and most remain in First Berkshire's assortment of liveries. They also have two Volvo B7/Geminis which are still in Barbie livery, which must be the last vehicles anywhere in the First empire in this livery. To be fair, there was some investment in Streetlites and Streetdecks in the mid 2010s, but at least some of the Streelites have already departed to other pastures.

Fairly sure the oldest Citaros in use now actually date from 2007, so are nearer 15 than 20 years old - they’re still decent machines though!

It’s also worth noting that Potteries has an older ALX400 in use on Barbie and Essex has a similar B7/Gemini still in use in Barbie, those are the last 4 surviving now. How they’ve managed 18 years without paint though….

Presentation in Worcester is much better than the buses of Somerset, which leaves a lot to be desired but seems to get away with it because ‘First South West’.

 

[Robertj21a]

I think First Worcester is probably now the worst-performing First opco now that Scotland East has been sold off. Their fleet mostly comprises a motley selection of Citaros, some of which have just reached their 20th birthday, and most remain in First Berkshire's assortment of liveries. They also have two Volvo B7/Geminis which are still in Barbie livery, which must be the last vehicles anywhere in the First empire in this livery. To be fair, there was some investment in Streetlites and Streetdecks in the mid 2010s, but at least some of the Streelites have already departed to other pastures.

There's a renewed vigour to Potteries, Somerset and Essex with new and refurbished stock, and an emphasis on appearance with the new liveries.

Back in the 2000s, Western National and Eastern Counties were the dumping grounds for First, but both operations have been turned around for the better.

I'm not sure this is what the OP meant in his post. First Worcester struggles with heavy traffic congestion, and a small fleet, but old stock doesn't automatically mean 'worst performing'.

 

[GusB]

Not wanting to take over the East Yorkshire thread with this so starting a new one.

I have family in Clacton On Sea so visit a few times a year, I also enjoy couple of visits to Bridlington and Scarborough a year so I get to witness two Go-Ahead operations at different ends of the spectrum.

Hedingham is very much a budget operation running a fleet of cascaded buses of various vintage, none of which look very cared for and time keeping/punctuality can be described as sloppy at best. It's very reminiscent of the Rotala operations in the midlands 10 years ago.

During a recent visit, I counted 7 different liveries.

Hedingham old
Hedingham new
Carousel
East Yorkshire
Go North East
London Red
Konectbus

East Yorkshire on the other hand, always turn out a presentable fleet of modern buses, generally in the latest East Yorkshire livery with smart route branding.

Is there any where else where there is such an obvious difference in standards within one of the bigger groups?

I think we require some clarification here! Are you specifically asking for examples where an existing "standard" operator has set up a "low cost" operation?

Otherwise we're just going to get a list of every company that happens to run vehicles over a certain age.

 

[90sWereBetter]

I'm not sure this is what the OP meant in his post. First Worcester struggles with heavy traffic congestion, and a small fleet, but old stock doesn't automatically mean 'worst performing'.

Well, it seems rather similar to how Hedingham was described in the OP.

 

[ChrisC]

The Wellglade Group have budget operations in Notts and Derby and TM Travel. These are run quite separately to their main Trent Barton routes. I suppose that Kinchbus is a little more like Trent Barton.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The whole K-Line / Huddersfield Bus Co / Centrebus setup in Yorkshire gave Arriva a low cost unit in the area

Sort of... both businesses existed long before Arriva came along, and whilst K-Line always had a bit of a "budget" feel (no evening or Sunday work, ramshackle fleet) I wouldn't say the same for the former Yorkshire Traction operation. That said, the Waterloo (Huddersfield) ops were always the "ginger stepchild" both at Tracky and Stagecoach, so it probably does qualify on that basis.

Under Arriva as Yorkshire Tiger, it barely competed with any Arriva-branded routes, so I'd argue it wasn't quite the same as the Magic Bus approach.

 

[bussnapperwm]

Travel Your Bus was seen at its time (late 90s/early 00s) to be the "low cost" unit of Travel West Midlands same with the Central Liner ( what is now National Express West Mids's Miller Street depot) bus ops and Metrowest, back in the early 90s.

 

[GusB]

Travel Your Bus was seen at its time (early 00s) to be the "low cost" unit, same with the Central Liner (Miller Street depot) bus ops and Metrowest, back in the 90s.

You're going to have to give a bit more detail, I'm afraid; which "big" operation was "Travel Your Bus" a subsidiary of, and where was Miller Street Depot?

 

[bussnapperwm]

You're going to have to give a bit more detail, I'm afraid; which "big" operation was "Travel Your Bus" a subsidiary of, and where was Miller Street Depot?

Done (I've edited my original message) I had typed it out in full originally but something weird seems to be happening with Samsung phones and certain web forums when typing where it keeps adding lots of blank lines for no reason which meant I had to delete and start again (and lose my train of thought!)

 

[CBlue]

At one point Arriva and First seemed to have a bit of a thing for having budget contract operations distinct from their main operating divisions.
Phoenix Student Travel operated by First Essex springs to mind, along with a division branded as "Sky Blue" that ran around Bristol for a time.

Another one was the Excel Coaches / Burtons operations around Stansted and Haverhill which Arriva acquired as part of the TGM purchase. It always seemed to get the dross other Arriva divisions didn't want and appeared to exist simply as a contract operator competing with local independents.

 

[Cesarcollie]

At one point Arriva and First seemed to have a bit of a thing for having budget contract operations distinct from their main operating divisions.
Phoenix Student Travel operated by First Essex springs to mind, along with a division branded as "Sky Blue" that ran around Bristol for a time.

Another one was the Excel Coaches / Burtons operations around Stansted and Haverhill which Arriva acquired as part of the TGM purchase. It always seemed to get the dross other Arriva divisions didn't want and appeared to exist simply as a contract operator competing with local independents.

Phoenix Student Travel was a private company. They simply sub-contracted First to run their routes using buses in their (Phoenix) livery. Subsequently they also had an O Licence of their own, but continued to use First for some routes.

 

[Andyh82]

Don’t Transdev use ‘Rosso’ as a lower cost operation in part?

When they won the Lancashire tenders, even though they run from Burnley, they operate on the Rosso licence by Rosso staff, rather than on the Burnley & Pendle licence

 

[tbtc]

Around twenty years ago, First used to have “Quickstep” in Leeds for the more marginal services, I don’t remember the exact details but I presume staff were on poorer wages?

We’ve had a few “low cost” routes in South Yorkshire (e.g. the First 22 from Rotherham to Barnsley, launched as retaliation for Stagecoach expansion), but not a whole separate operation since the big operators took over (in the 1990s Barnsley & District were Yorkshire Traction’s budget brand, SYT/Mainline used the acquired Sheafline/sut for similar purposes, there was also Don Valley Buses)

However, as Stagecoach are running ex-MagicBus vehicles around Sheffield, it feels like we’re taking second hand stock from an already discounted operation!

 

[Flange Squeal]

When Stagecoach South acquired the Hampshire independent Fleet Buzz in December 2011, they initially kept the operation separate (officially labelled as a low cost unit). When bringing in ageing Darts of various types to replace the similarly aged step entrance Varios over the following couple of years in readiness for the accessibility deadline, these were painted in the black and yellow Fleet Buzz livery rather than corporate “beach ball”. The low cost unit took on some additional tender wins around Farnborough following the demise of Countryliner and offshoot SwiftBus, rather than these going to the main Stagecoach depot in the area at Aldershot.

Towards the end though Stagecoach vehicles appeared more and more, with January 2015 seeing the operation closed down following cuts to council subsidies causing large cuts to the Fleet Buzz network of routes around Fleet. The muddy yard was closed with the reduced peak vehicle requirement moved to the main Stagecoach Aldershot depot (into space freed up by moving routes there to the then-new Guildford depot), vehicles not sold/transferred painted into corporate livery, and routes 9/11/41/42/72 brought into the main Stagecoach network (they were already shown on the local Stagecoach network map but under the Fleet Buzz name).

 

[ChrisPJ]

do I recall correctly that there was a Firstbus operation in Sheffield called Bargain Bus and using purple double deckers?

 

[bussnapperwm]

Trent Barton used their Midland General subsidiary as a "low cost" operation called Bargain Bus in the early 2010s as competition for routes ran by Premiere in Nottingham

 

[CBlue]

Phoenix Student Travel was a private company. They simply sub-contracted First to run their routes using buses in their (Phoenix) livery. Subsequently they also had an O Licence of their own, but continued to use First for some routes.

Thanks for the explanation, always wondered about the details of that particular operation!

 

[Murray J]

Trent Barton used their Midland General subsidiary as a "low cost" operation called Bargain Bus in the early 2010s as competition for routes ran by Premiere in Nottingham

I believe Go North East did something similar around the same period, I believe against Arriva North East?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I believe Go North East did something similar around the same period, I believe against Arriva North East?

They did - as well as buying Northumbria Buses, they also started routes from Blyth to Newcastle against Arriva NE using a number of ex Arriva London Olympians painted yellow and branded as Bargain Bus.

A lot of these instances are the result of a large operator acquiring a small business and then operating as a low cost unit until the unions put pressure on to integrate them. Another North East one was the purchase of The Eden at West Auckland (now resurrected) where the depot was closed, operations largely integrated but 4 vehicles had Eden fleetnames and worked tendered routes in Bishop Auckland.