Lancaster Northern Rail driver not happy

[Simon Poole]

on the 13/08/10, me and my brother travelled to Lancaster to see what the station was like and takke photo and videos of trains, around 1242, my brother was filming an Northern Rail 153 arriving into Platform 2, the way he was filming it was the cab was facing the camera, when the Class 153 stopped, the doors open and the passengers were let out but the driver walked out and walked up to him, he asked him 'what he was doing' then the driver of Northern Rail started being agreesive and said some of the following

'You didn't asked for my permission' and mentioned that he should had gone upstairs to get permission, using all the excuses and he also called him an 'prick' (Sorry about my langauge, but that's what he call him) be he kept on yelling and also treatened to call the police on him

the Northern Rail driver stormed off, but he came back, my brother tried to explain but he told him 'leave me alone' and stormed to the cab of the Class 153, me and my brother ended up going to the ticket area and getting an complaint form, went back down but my brother went to the Police and spoke to him, an police officer spoke to the Norther Rail driver and explainned the situlation, the policeman came back over and told my brother that he had an word with the Northern Rail driver, the driver didn't like being photoed and filmed and my brother decided not to take it further with the police

we ended up filling out an complaint form and posted it outside Preston Railway Station, at the end of the day, he shouldn't spoken to him with that attitude

Also at the same time when the train was pulling into the station myself was out the way and took photos of the class 153 arriving but nothing was said

 

[43167]

By the sounds of it he was well out of order. Let us know the out come.

 

[Lampshade]

Quite an overreaction, a simple "Could you please not film me" would have sufficed :?

 

[455driver]

They were filming the unit, the driver just happened to be in the cab. If he isnt used to being filmed by now maybe he needs to get another job!

Now if you were sticking the camera through the cab window then that would be different!

 

[mumrar]

They were filming the unit, the driver just happened to be in the cab. If he isnt used to being filmed by now maybe he needs to get another job!

Now if you were sticking the camera through the cab window then that would be different!

A bad day at the office should not excuse rudeness, especially making up things to back it up.

Hard and fast rules, he is right that you should have sought permission, but from the station manager not from him.

Nowadays people seem to live under the misapprehension that when you are in a public place you still require a persons permission if they're in your photo. Could you imagine trying that for every picture you take, be it railways or not. I took a shot of a turbostar the other day and you could see some of the passengers. All this stupidity has come hand in hand with our 'War on Terror' (or 'War on people we don't like with good natural resources' as it should be called) and engendered a silly attitude to both photography itself, and as to what the subject of your photo may be.

 

[Old Timer]

Frankly I am appalled.

Working in the Railway industry means that in general much of your work will be done within sight and earshot of the general public, or passengers or both.

There has always been the expectation that you will be filmed or photographed at some point. It comes as part of the job, and provided it is not personally intrusive then one just have to learn to live with it as an occupational hazard.

I believe that much of this type of problem may stem from some of the new recruits, who in the olden days would not have been attracted to the job. It does seem to be a more recent problem.

I really dont know how these chaps would have gotten on in the 70s and 80s when they would have been met any major station by hoardes of photographers.

I believe that on one occasion a set of Saltleymen who had rescued a failure and worked it through to Paddington with a class 58 arrived to a hail of flashbulbs and flashguns as they rolled to a stop. Apparantly it was lit up like royal performance !

God only knows what would be the reaction these days.

 

[Simon Poole]

Class 153332 was working the Lancaster to Morecabe shuttles, this happened when the driver was beinging in an train from Morecabe, the 2C76 1243 into Lancaster

the funny thing was, he knew we were there before this happened, if he had an problem with it, he should had said something earler becuase he drove the 2C74 into Lancaster which arrive at 1150

 

[mumrar]

I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve by posting out the exact details of the trains he was working. More to the point, you've possibly tripped yourself up over the whole permission to take/post photographs thing by posting a big crop showing only the driver and nothing more. That kind of shot the driver could legitimately get annoyed by, though not in the manner he chose.

 

[Ferret]

Hard and fast rules, he is right that you should have sought permission, but from the station manager not from him.

Not quite Matt. You aren't required to ask permission, you are asked to inform the DSM of your presence and that's it!

As for the behaviour of the driver, I suspect he'll be in for a lengthy chat with his DTM. Just no need for that at all. If he loses the plot like that over something as daft as having his photo taken, what would he be like in an emergency? Anyone from Northern care to comment on here?

 

[First class]

I, personally, would rather listen to the driver's side of things before making any criticisms.

Although the driver MAY have been abrupt and rude, all to often you get enthusiasts who get a bit too cocky themselves thinking they can't be touched and can be quite intrusive or even aggressive.

Quite why your brother felt it necessary to go to the police over it is also very confusing. What exactly was the crime reported exactly? Very over the top reaction from your brother.

I'm not saying this happened, but lets assume this ALTERNATIVE version of events:

1) Train driver has earlier requested he doesn't photograph him.
2) Brother ignores him and continues.
3) Train returns with another working, still photographing the train/driver.
4) Driver, understandably annoyed, discovers he hasn't signed in. Tells him he is obliged to.
5) Brother kicks off claiming he knows his rights and he can do what he wants etc...
6) Driver has enough listening to him waffle on and may (fairly, but unprofessionally), call him a prick and leaves.
7) Brother decides he wants to get some sort of revenge on the driver and decides to be a hero and get the police involved.

Just my thoughts... someone has to even it out.

If I went to the police every time someone said a mean word to me, I'd be best of moving into the police station!

 

[Ferret]

I, personally, would rather listen to the driver's side of things before making any criticisms.

Although the driver MAY have been abrupt and rude, all to often you get enthusiasts who get a bit too cocky themselves thinking they can't be touched and can be quite intrusive or even aggressive.

Quite why your brother felt it necessary to go to the police over it is also very confusing. What exactly was the crime reported exactly? Very over the top reaction from your brother.

I'm not saying this happened, but lets assume this ALTERNATIVE version of events:

1) Train driver has earlier requested he doesn't photograph him.
2) Brother ignores him and continues.
3) Train returns with another working, still photographing the train/driver.
4) Driver, understandably annoyed, discovers he hasn't signed in. Tells him he is obliged to.
5) Brother kicks off claiming he knows his rights and he can do what he wants etc...
6) Driver has enough listening to him waffle on and may (fairly, but unprofessionally), call him a prick and leaves.
7) Brother decides he wants to get some sort of revenge on the driver and decides to be a hero and get the police involved.

Just my thoughts... someone has to even it out.

If I went to the police every time someone said a mean word to me, I'd be best of moving into the police station!

Sorry, no excuse there at all. And, calling him a prick is an assault in the eyes of the law. The driver has put himself at risk of prosecution for Public Order at the very least, and dismissal as well.

 

[First class]

Sorry, no excuse there at all. And, calling him a prick is an assault in the eyes of the law. The driver has put himself at risk of prosecution for Public Order at the very least, and dismissal as well.

Firstly, it is not an assault. It is a Public Order Offence.

The offence is created by section 5 of the Public Order Act 1986:
"(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he:
(a) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or
(b) displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting,
within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress thereby."

This offence has the following statutory defences:

(a) The defendant had no reason to believe that there was any person within hearing or sight who was likely to be alarmed or distressed by his action.
(b) The defendant was in a dwelling and had no reason to believe that his behaviour would be seen or heard by any person outside any dwelling.
(c) The conduct was reasonable.

It depends entirely on how the person he was communicating with was also reacting. It may be 'fair play'.

As for the complainee, he could potentially look at much serious charges against himself.

(8) No person shall molest or wilfully interfere with the comfort or convenience of any person on the railway.

(Taking pictures of the driver).

(2) An authorised person may, in an emergency or in other circumstances in which he believes he should act in the interests of safety, issue instructions to any person on the railway. No person shall, without good cause, disobey such instructions.

Asking him to sign in.

(2) No person shall loiter on the railway if asked to leave by an authorised person.

If the driver asked him to leave - WITH, OR WITHOUT REASON.

Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to be in breach of any of these Byelaws and who fails to desist or leave when asked to do so by an authorised person may be removed from the railway by an authorised person using reasonable force. This right of removal is in addition to the imposition of any penalty for the breach of these Byelaws.

If necessary, the driver can use reasonable force to 'make' the person leave as they have breached at least 1 byelaw.

 

[Ferret]

Firstly, it is not an assault. It is a Public Order Offence.

The offence is created by section 5 of the Public Order Act 1986:
"(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he:
(a) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or
(b) displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting,
within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress thereby."

This offence has the following statutory defences:

(a) The defendant had no reason to believe that there was any person within hearing or sight who was likely to be alarmed or distressed by his action.
(b) The defendant was in a dwelling and had no reason to believe that his behaviour would be seen or heard by any person outside any dwelling.
(c) The conduct was reasonable.

It depends entirely on how the person he was communicating with was also reacting. It may be 'fair play'.

As for the complainee, he could potentially look at much serious charges against himself.

(Taking pictures of the driver).
Asking him to sign in.
If the driver asked him to leave - WITH, OR WITHOUT REASON.
If necessary, the driver can use reasonable force to 'make' the person leave as they have breached at least 1 byelaw.

The conduct was reasonable?! Who the hell are you trying to kid?! From the description we have (yes, I accept the usual 2 sides to every story caveat), that was far from reasonable.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I see a pattern emerging here. Ferret professes to know it, someone say's he's wrong and Ferret kicks off :roll:

Back to the topic though, awful behaviour from the driver if what the OP says is true, and frankly, I hope he gets the book thrown at him by his DSM.

 

[Simon Poole]

I, personally, would rather listen to the driver's side of things before making any criticisms.

Quite why your brother felt it necessary to go to the police over it is also very confusing. What exactly was the crime reported exactly? Very over the top reaction from your brother.

The reason my brother deicided to go to the Police is becuase the driver did threaten to get the Police involved, the driver was threatening with his attitude

 

[scotsman]

Before we can discuss this with any meaning, we need to know the full details - which includes any previous meetings with this driver.

Also, the idea of posting his picture on here to "name and shame" are, quite frankly, pathetic.

To be honest, I think you're blowing things out of proportion since the only evidence you're giving is purely incriminating the driver.

 

[Simon Poole]

On the day it was THE first meeting wiith the driver, but he been working back and forth with the same DMU from Morcombe to Lancaster, which i mentioned with the 1150 and 1243

The picture i posted up, i would agree with scotsman, the first reason was to name and shame him but the second reason would be to be aware if your planning to ttake photos and videos around the Northern Rail Network because personally i wouldn't like to see another indicent like at Lancaster

 

[Ferret]

I see a pattern emerging here. Ferret professes to know it, someone say's he's wrong and Ferret kicks off :roll:

Back to the topic though, awful behaviour from the driver if what the OP says is true, and frankly, I hope he gets the book thrown at him by his DSM.

Ummm, if people post the most tenuous gibber trying to defend the indefensible then should that not be highlighted? In what circumstances would you say that driver was being reasonable?

 

[455driver]

A bad day at the office should not excuse rudeness, especially making up things to back it up.

Hard and fast rules, he is right that you should have sought permission, but from the station manager not from him.

I wasnt sticking up for the driver, I was sticking up for the OP!

They were filming the unit, the driver just happened to be in the cab. If he isnt used to being filmed by now maybe he needs to get another job!

Now if you were sticking the camera through the cab window then that would be different!

Could you explain how I was sticking up for the driver in this post, apart from the last bit which is the only case I can think where the driver could have a genuine issue and is not relevant to this thread as it did not happen.

 

[Old Timer]

The picture of him driving the train into Lancaster on the 13th August 2010 arriving into Lancaster, this was the 1150 arriving is the picture below

May I request that the picture is removed, Old Chap ?

I think this is starting to become a public trial, which is not right, and I am starting to feel very uncomfortable.

If you have a complaint then by all means proceed through the appropriate channels, but personally I believe that the detail of this issue is between you, the Driver and the TOC concerned.

 

[Ferret]

May I request that the picture is removed, Old Chap ?

I think this is starting to become a public trial, which is not right, and I am starting to feel very uncomfortable.

If you have a complaint then by all means proceed through the appropriate channels, but personally I believe that the detail of this issue is between you, the Driver and the TOC concerned.

I agree. Look, I can understand you're annoyed with the driver of the train and rightly so. He lost control of himself, simple as, and I'm sure if you go through the appropriate channels then the appropriate action will be taken.

As to all those posting tenuous defences - yes, we weren't there and yes there are two sides to every story, but you just can't go calling a member of the public a prick and then storm off to your cab. If I was the guard and had seen that, I wouldn't have felt overly comfortable about him driving my train - angry driver equals SPAD risk. This really does smack of somebody losing the plot because he didn't get his own way.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I think Ferret, this may be the first time we might agree

Posting a picture of the driver will not help your case at all.

 

[Ferret]

Ralph - quite. It's not going to achieve much! And then, are we arguably getting into the realms of harassment? Far better to remove the photo, deal with Northern and post the outcome on here if you wish.

 

[mumrar]

455driver, whilst my post appeared directly below yours, don't think it referred to your own reply. If I am referring to a specific post I will quote the sections, as you did.

 

[Simon Poole]

My brother had the letter back from Northern Rail Today from the incident from Friday the 13th of August

And i Quote from the letter

Thank You for your correspondence, which i received recently.

I was concerned to learn about the connduct of our employee. All our employees are required to be courteous and professional at all times and complaints of this nature thankfully are isolated

I would also like to respectfully point out that we do not allow filming of any kind on the railway without express permission from our Head Office and any idividuals who may be filmed

Please accept my assurance that your complaint has been passed, anonymously, to the relevant manager who will speak with the staff member concerned about the issues you have highlighted and the appropriate action will be taken.

Thank You again for taking the trouble to offer this valuable feedback and i hope that future contact with us and our staff members will leave you with more favourable impressions.

First of all i like to point out that Lancaster is an Virgin Trains operated

also if anyone like to see the follow controversial video on the link below, please note all you can see in the video is the driver's hand and not his face to viiew it play the video from 4:46

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_CkpoFAsk8

 

[jimrbrobinson]

I will confess here and now that I am one of those people who doesn't 'like' having my photograph taken. I'll freely admit that is mostly out of concern for the safety of the poor camera involved. My ugly mug was not designed for capturing on celluloid (or the modern silicone equivalent!). I have a face that was definitely designed for the radio, and whilst my body may be a temple, English Heritage despair of any degree of restoration!

However, as some of you will know, I am presently trying to get into a career within the rail industry, ideally as a conductor or as a driver. Given that (as far as I am aware) enthusiasts have been photting trains for longer than I suspect many of us have been drawing breath, I understand and accept that being captured in someone's photograph collection (as an incidental to their picture of a train) is an occupational hazard that I will have to live with. And I have absolutely no problem with that. I'm choosing to enter a profession where I feel one should expect that people are going to take photos of the locomotive or unit you happen to be working, and I know that going in. To be honest, given the history of enthusiasts combining their love for the railways with a passion for photography, I'm surprised there's so many problems seem to crop up.

I fully appreciate that sometimes the antics of a small minority in order to capture the 'perfect shot' mean they become oblivious to the rules and place themselves or others in danger, and yes such matters need to be addressed. So too if they are getting in the way of other rail-users, and causing a genuine nuisance. However, there is a calm and professional way of doing this in a manner which will not bring professional rail staff into disrepute, and that is in my opinion the main problem these days with some staff's attitude towards photography. :cry:

 

[mbonwick]

I can't see Northern Rail's policy of not allowing any filming on the railway being legally binding somehow.

On Northern Rail property, yes...but anywhere on the network?!

Lancaster is VT operated, though most of the staff are actually ex-BR and are really enthusiast friendly. They often pass on gen to the veg at the platform ends.

 

[43167]

Really surprised about the reply saying Northern Rail do not allow filming.

Sounds abit like the person not knowing about the guidelines.

Taken plenty of Northern Rail units at Northern Rail stations.

 

[Simon Poole]

Taken plenty of Northern Rail units at Northern Rail stations.

erm no, taken Northern rail at Crewe, Stoke-On-Trent, Manchester, Chester, Preston, Lancaster, York, Liverpool Lime Street and there might be the odd one or two location but they were mainly done at Network Rail, Virgin, East Coast and Arriva stations

 

[142094]

They might not allow commercial filming without prior consent, which seems to make people working in the customer services confused about railway enthusiasts filming.