Labour plan to devolve NSE area?

[telstarbox]

Could this be the return of Network SouthEast?

Labour will devolve responsibility for commuter rail services across London and the South East to a new local authority body dubbed Rail South East if it wins the next General Election.

The party wants to replicate the plans for a Rail North governance body with a similar outfit in the South East as part of a major devolution of power from Whitehall. Rail South East would comprise the mayor of London plus local transport authorities from across the South East.

 

[Muzer]

Lol. I don't know. This doesn't surprise me in the slightest, and I also doubt we'll have any chance of seeing it actually happen. Labour just seem to be floundering under their poor leadership at the moment; throwing policies at the wall and seeing what sticks.

(I'm in no way pro-conservative, but the opposition is just as bad but in a different way at the moment, IMHO!)

 

[WatcherZero]

Mmm, I wonder if this will continue as the trend, theres already far fewer franchises than when the Government first privatised the network and they are continuing to consolidate. Ive even heard murmurings of merging West Coast and East Coast to make a single long distance intercity franchise, though post HS2 that probably wouldnt make much sense with them both taking on a more commuter charachter with high speed services on the new rail lines.

 

[tbtc]

Sounds like a good idea, given how the London "bubble" is going to impact upon the remainder of the South East over the next generation.

Some "region wide" planning (and TOCs) sounds like the way forward to tackle demand that doesn't necessarily all involve "Zone 1".

The merger of Southern and Thameslink suggests we are going to get fewer/ bigger TOCs, so why not have a bigger authority to manage things?

Most of the franchises in the "NSE" area are much more self contained than any attempts to replicate the ScotRail model onto Wales.

Labour just seem to be floundering under their poor leadership at the moment; throwing policies at the wall and seeing what sticks

They get criticised by some for "having no policies and just criticising any Government initative", but then get criticised for "throwing policies at the wall".

 

[Muzer]

I don't criticise them for criticising government initiatives. That's what they're there for!

I criticise them for agreeing too much and coming up with ideas they clearly haven't thought through (the text of this one implies they haven't actually spoken to any rail experts yet...)

 

[bicbasher]

I'd like to see more detail on the policy, but would this mean in principle that the London Rail arm of TfL would become part of Rail South East?

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I don't agree on what Labour, Conservative or Lib Dems do as they are bad as each other.

If I had it my way NSE would return but as NSE Southern, NSE South Eastern, NSE Thameslink and so forth so that the current setup is retained but nationalised to a regional level.

 

[tbtc]

I don't criticise them for criticising government initiatives. That's what they're there for!

I criticise them for agreeing too much and coming up with ideas they clearly haven't thought through (the text of this one implies they haven't actually spoken to any rail experts yet...)

Didn't mean to sound like I was criticising you personally, just referring to the problem that an "opposition" has.

The more I think about it, the more i like this proposal - the way that London is evolving and the apparent desire to extend routes (beyond current political boundaries)

 

[starrymarkb]

I'd be interested in the boundaries given that NSE came as far west as Exeter Central* (with NSE trains running to Plymouth and Paignton)

*For a few years in the early 1990s Exeter Central was fully decked out in Network South East red before being transferred to Regional Railways in 1994 and immediately being repainted RR blue

 

[Muzer]

Didn't mean to sound like I was criticising you personally, just referring to the problem that an "opposition" has.

The more I think about it, the more i like this proposal - the way that London is evolving and the apparent desire to extend routes (beyond current political boundaries)

Fair enough.

FWIW, I haven't thought through the proposal enough to know whether I like it or not, which is why I haven't referenced it. It could be a good idea, but could also mean that rail innovation is solely in the hands of the government (who might not be as good as TOCs at seeing which way the wind is blowing, etc.). I don't know how much "good" TOCs have influenced the rail network since privatisation in the South East - if there have been some significant things, it might be worth considering.

 

[Zoe]

For a few years in the early 1990s Exeter Central was fully decked out in Network South East red before being transferred to Regional Railways in 1994 and immediately being repainted RR blue

The change would have actually been around 1992 when the sectors took over ownership of the infrastructure from the regions. I have seen a photo from that period showing Regional Railways branding on the signs at Exeter Central but still with red lamp posts.

 

[route:oxford]

If I had it my way NSE would return but as NSE Southern, NSE South Eastern, NSE Thameslink and so forth so that the current setup is retained but nationalised to a regional level.

Can you really nationalise something that is regionalised?

 

[185]

Media will have a field day with a franchise called..... *RSE!

 

[Eagle]

I'd be interested in the boundaries given that NSE came as far west as Exeter Central* (with NSE trains running to Plymouth and Paignton)

NSE also got to Birmingham Snow Hill and Hereford, and I think at one point they may have operated a London–Oxford–Worcester–Stourbridge service (this being before the line via The Hawthorns had reopened). Although the last NSE-branded stations would have been Banbury and Pershore, I assume.

 

[The Ham]

Media will have a field day with a franchise called..... *RSE!

They should have just gone the whole hog and called it All Rail South East!!!

 

[WatcherZero]

I'd like to see more detail on the policy, but would this mean in principle that the London Rail arm of TfL would become part of Rail South East?

If it follows the RINE proposal they would continue to plan and administer within London as they normally do but would get to vote at regular board meetings on policy, service and investment decisions in the wider area as well as heavily influencing franchise specifications.

 

[starrymarkb]

They should have just gone the whole hog and called it All Rail South East!!!

That makes me think of the Ferrovie Autolinee Regionali Ticinesi

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I criticise them for agreeing too much and coming up with ideas they clearly haven't thought through (the text of this one implies they haven't actually spoken to any rail experts yet...)

To be fair, all policies have to start somewhere, with some sounding out. The newspaper article at the start of this thread is very vague on the source of the information, referring only to a Labour Party 'source'. That suggests to me this is not a final definitive policy, but rather an idea under development.

And I have to say it does sound like there's some sense in it. TfL overall does quite a good job of managing transport in London, and expanding a model that we know works to cover more of the country would appear to be pragmatic and reasonable.

 

[samuelmorris]

Could this be anything to do with the perceived differences between rail spending around London, and anywhere else in the country? I'm not entirely sure what a single body would achieve though, it's basically part-renationalisation. TfL might be 'taking over' a fair few franchises but they're hardly being nationalised.

 

[Zoe]

TfL overall does quite a good job of managing transport in London, and expanding a model that we know works to cover more of the country would appear to be pragmatic and reasonable.

However the Brown Review did not consider the model to be appropriate for the majority of franchises. The stated reasons were that other than TfL and Merseytravel, no body exists to market the services and sell tickets (only the TOCs have this capability) and that leaving the revenue risk with the franchisee provides a "powerful incentive to grow passenger revenue and patronage which it would be foolish to lose."

 

[Tiny Tim]

I'm sure that by the time Labour gets into government policies like this one will be long forgotten. Unfortunately it won't stop this or any other government tinkering with our railways.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Can you really nationalise something that is regionalised?

So longs there is one main orgainisation that deals with the lot then it can be done. I.e British Rail and its subsiduries, the regionalised nationalisation would be the subsiduries.

 

[CockneySparrow]

Media will have a field day with a franchise called..... *RSE!

So would the passangers if they didn't perform

I've now got visions of trains now with that written on the side lol

Not forgetting the station announcers "the next **** service to London will depart from platform 1 calling at ......."

 

[Stats]

To be fair, all policies have to start somewhere, with some sounding out. The newspaper article at the start of this thread is very vague on the source of the information, referring only to a Labour Party 'source'. That suggests to me this is not a final definitive policy, but rather an idea under development.

This is Maria Eagle's policy in an interview she gave to the Evening Standard some weeks ago.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...ailways-says-labours-maria-eagle-8702819.html

London’s Mayor will be handed sweeping new powers over commuter rail services if Labour wins the next election, shadow transport secretary Maria Eagle pledged today.

Could this be anything to do with the perceived differences between rail spending around London, and anywhere else in the country?

No, it's in response to the concerns that certain parties had to Boris getting the Southeastern routes he wanted.

 

[yorksrob]

Sounds a very sensible idea to me.

One brand for South East England with unified peak times, region wide offers etc.

Come to think of it, I‘ve just thought of a brand name and colour scheme they could use

 

[Eagle]

Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only one who realizes how bad an idea to use one identical brand across several TOCs.

Okay, use a similar brand, but at least let me be able to easily distinguish between separate operators (which is useful for a number of reasons, not least the preponderance of operator-specific tickets).

 

[yorksrob]

Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only one who realizes how bad an idea to use one identical brand across several TOCs.

Okay, use a similar brand, but at least let me be able to easily distinguish between separate operators (which is useful for a number of reasons, not least the preponderance of operator-specific tickets).

Presuming we didn't have region wide offers, how would that be different from distinguishing between different trains from the same TOC for fares and offers.

 

[Eagle]

Presuming we didn't have region wide offers, how would that be different from distinguishing between different trains from the same TOC for fares and offers.

Is that a veiled Gatwick Express joke? :P

Put simply, the differences between TOCs are much greater and more significant than those between different trains within the same TOC.


Sometimes it seems like some people want to live in a world where they can pretend that BR still operates. Well you can't. The British railway is operated by a number of different separate operators, and it is imperative that they are not confused.

 

[yorksrob]

Is that a veiled Gatwick Express joke? :P

Put simply, the differences between TOCs are much greater and more significant than those between different trains within the same TOC.


Sometimes it seems like some people want to live in a world where they can pretend that BR still operates. Well you can't. The British railway is operated by a number of different separate operators, and it is imperative that they are not confused.

Well, yes, I try and pretend as much as possible that the sectors are still there

But on a serious note, there are real advantages to a City like London's hinterland having unified fares structures, marketing, restrictions etc. It makes the City easier to travel in for visitors, business people and residents alike. Given this, having lots of pretty liveries seems less important.

 

[tbtc]

there are real advantages to a City like London's hinterland having unified fares structures, marketing, restrictions etc. It makes the City easier to travel in for visitors, business people and residents alike. Given this, having lots of pretty liveries seems less important.

Marketing differs between TOCs, no doubt there, but I'm not sure what improvements you'd want in restrictions/ fare structures and the like.

Even under BR there were examples where one longer journey was cheaper than one shorter journey or one route had different peak restrictions to another (or no peak restrictions at all) - given that demands are different on each route.

Similarly, there are differences inside TOCs here (like the way that Northern's "Duo" is only valid on some lines or Southern's "key" is not valid from all stations (and some TOCs have had multiple liveries between their fleet and sub-brands - look at the Stagecoach ones).

Does it really matter to passengers between Brighton and London whether the Bedford - London passengers at the other end of Thameslink have different peak hour restrictions or different ticketing offers.

Some things about BR were good, but that's no reason to try to try to replicate everything.