Knowing the route or train too well.

[driver9000]

[*]Secondly, if it was possible, people with enough knowledge could be taught properly how to drive the train safely. Then as volunteers, they could cover stretches of services when there is a shortage of drivers - this would have been very good during the recent London Midland ASLEF problems. However I think people might be 'slightly' unnerved by the fact a 14 year old might be driving a train though that probably wouldn't be allowed . As I said before this is probably extremely unlikely though I would love to have a go!
[/LIST]

Lets be honest, this would never happen. How would the volunteers be selected (using the standard Train driver selection tests?). Presuming these volunteers are working in their own jobs, how would they find the time to complete the 230 hours practical handling needed?, how would they find the time to complete the Rules and regs course (nearly 8 weeks attendance Monday-Friday with home study too), traction courses (several full days for some types), proper route learning (stretching to weeks), and then supposing this merry band of 'free' Drivers were let loose on the general public would they drive a train regularly enough to maintain their rules, routes, and traction knowledge? Knowing the route well as a passenger is one thing, knowing the route as a Driver or Guard is another thing entirely. I spent nearly 12 months full time training to learn the what I needed to know and tick off the 230 hours needed in order to pass out as a Driver - gathering a few volunteers, spending thousands of pounds and hoping to train them piecemeal in the vain hope that they might be needed just wouldn't happen. I'm not trying to ruin the fun of this thread but you need to be realistic.

 

[imagination]

Just out of interest would having a good knowledge of the route already help (give you an advantage) if you applied for a job as a driver with the TOC concerned?

 

[strange6]

Lets be honest, this would never happen. How would the volunteers be selected (using the standard Train driver selection tests?). Presuming these volunteers are working in their own jobs, how would they find the time to complete the 230 hours practical handling needed?, how would they find the time to complete the Rules and regs course (nearly 8 weeks attendance Monday-Friday with home study too), traction courses (several full days for some types), proper route learning (stretching to weeks), and then supposing this merry band of 'free' Drivers were let loose on the general public would they drive a train regularly enough to maintain their rules, routes, and traction knowledge? Knowing the route well as a passenger is one thing, knowing the route as a Driver or Guard is another thing entirely. I spent nearly 12 months full time training to learn the what I needed to know and tick off the 230 hours needed in order to pass out as a Driver - gathering a few volunteers, spending thousands of pounds and hoping to train them piecemeal in the vain hope that they might be needed just wouldn't happen. I'm not trying to ruin the fun of this thread but you need to be realistic.

Bang on the money. Knowing speed limits and positions of signals and stations is a good start in my opinion, but there is a lot more to it than that as Driver9000 says. Train handling over the route alone requires the hours, day-in and day-out in order for you to be signed consistantly competent

 

[Class172]

No chance then. Just as I thought . It was an 'ideal world scenario' and of which never happens. I wouldn't say the first idea was too unrealistic

 

[strange6]

No chance then. Just as I thought . It was an 'ideal world scenario' and of which never happens. I wouldn't say the first idea was too unrealistic

Nothing stopping you from driving a class 142 over a route in BVE to practice your train handling

 

[Class172]

Nothing stopping you from driving a class 142 over a route in BVE to practice your train handling

Well for me it would be trainz, I love driving the turbostars (or I can get a passengers view just like what I see every day )

 

[Lee_Again]

Route knowledge !!??

I have been commuting between Stevenage and Kings Cross for 20 years and also travelled to Leeds almost weekly for a good portion of that. I always thought that I knew the route 'like the back of my hand', until...

...I was lucky enough to have a cab ride from Kings Cross to Leeds and back. Let me tell you, I knew nothing. The driver not only knew the route but also the position of every signal, the braking points for every speed restriction, every crossing, bridge, tunnel and many other structures.

I was watching everything the driver was doing and without realising we'd pass a 115mph marker at exactly the right time, no braking, just pure understanding the route and conditions. I was very impressed by the professionalism.

I'm sure most drivers would have a discreet smile to themselves if reading threads like this.

Having said that, I would love to visit the signal box at Kings Cross to see how they flight trains over the Welwyn viaduct. The number of times I've been held at Woolmer Green, in the up direction, only to be realeased 5 minutes later without any train passing on the fast. Annoys me every time. Mind you, I am happy to accept that signallers don't do it on purpose. Just curious.

 

[317666]

West Anglia Main Line I more-or-less know off by heart. I can name all the stations in order without looking at a map.

 

[strange6]

Route knowledge !!??

I have been commuting between Stevenage and Kings Cross for 20 years and also travelled to Leeds almost weekly for a good portion of that. I always thought that I knew the route 'like the back of my hand', until...

...I was lucky enough to have a cab ride from Kings Cross to Leeds and back. Let me tell you, I knew nothing. The driver not only knew the route but also the position of every signal, the braking points for every speed restriction, every crossing, bridge, tunnel and many other structures.

I was watching everything the driver was doing and without realising we'd pass a 115mph marker at exactly the right time, no braking, just pure understanding the route and conditions. I was very impressed by the professionalism.

I'm sure most drivers would have a discreet smile to themselves if reading threads like this.

Having said that, I would love to visit the signal box at Kings Cross to see how they flight trains over the Welwyn viaduct. The number of times I've been held at Woolmer Green, in the up direction, only to be realeased 5 minutes later without any train passing on the fast. Annoys me every time. Mind you, I am happy to accept that signallers don't do it on purpose. Just curious.

It's like any other job that somebody does, day in, day out, for years on end. You do get to know it inside out. It would seem like normal to you who was doing that job but to an outsider, it would be amazing to them in what you could do.

 

[Donny Dave]

West Anglia Main Line I more-or-less know off by heart. I can name all the stations in order without looking at a map.

As others have said, it's not just knowing the names of the stations.

Due to the countless number of times I have covered the route between Scunthorpe and Doncaster, I know where all there stations are, and the speed limits in both directions (there is a difference depending on which direction your travelling). The same applies (for me at least) on the Scunthorpe - Grimsby and Doncaster - Sheffield routes.

However, despite the above, It's probably the case I'm still not good enough for even a non-commercial conductors job, as I have no traction knowledge ....

 

[notadriver]

I think if you can drive a train on BVE how different can it be to real life? Strange6 would hopefully back me up on this.

 

[O L Leigh]

I dabbled with BVE before getting a place as a trainee driver, and I can confirm that train sims do NOTHING to prepare you for the real thing. Forget all you think you know and everything you've ever understood, because the level of route knowledge required in order to actually WORK a route, whether as a guard or a driver, is far in excess of what you could ever hope to gain from riding up and down any given stretch of line.

About the only use that TOCs could get out of frequent users of the line is with passenger information, but even then there is the PIS to tell you when the train is on approach to any station and where to change for other services.

O L Leigh

 

[- Cal -]

I know various routes very well, stations, boxes, junctions, signalling types, speed limits, local hazards, dispatch types, electrification and other stuff BUT........I'm a Guard some of these posts people are putting are a complete joke sorry if it offends you but its true

 

[westcoaster]

I think if you can drive a train on BVE how different can it be to real life? Strange6 would hopefully back me up on this.

In bve if you muck things up you can alt+f4, no such thing in real life.

 

[Eng274]

In bve if you muck things up you can alt+f4, no such thing in real life.

Whenever I'm doing anything handwritten or with pen & paper and I make a mistake I sometimes instinctively think "CTRL Z" rather than "where's the tippex".. I think I spend too much time drawing stuff with the PC!

Back on subject, I spend many hours honing the Network West Midlands routes on BVE4, and although my brake point timing for Frankley junction isn't perfect, I reckon I'd do well on it if it were IRL.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Just out of interest would having a good knowledge of the route already help (give you an advantage) if you applied for a job as a driver with the TOC concerned?

Not especially. It might be worth mentioning but playing on it might just give the guy interviewing you the impression that you are a bit of a smart alec who thinks they know a lot more than they actually do. In some ways it could be seen as detrimental.

Training is to such a standard where even if you are somebody who has never been over a route before in their life will know it intimately before you are allowed out on your own. It still takes quite a while after that before you have the ability to coast down to speed restrictions, hit stop boards with a single brake application and all the other things that were mentioned in the anecdote about the cab ride on the East Coast earlier in this thread. Stuff like that just comes from fine tuning your technique day in, day out.

The route looks completely different from the driving cab than it does from the saloon too. 99.9% of the time I spend on trains over my route is in the driving cab so when I find myself in a saloon I often find myself wondering where I am! I think that is just a thing where you see something you know like the back of your hand from a completely different angle and it just looks weird, but of course most route knowledge is based on things you see in the cess, something you cant see when you are sitting in the saloon looking out of one of the side windows.

 

[1V53]

Agreed. As a guard my view is out the back, what's been. I once had to help inspect the line on a route I know well as a guard but the drivers view was different again.

I'd also agree to be careful if any enthusiasts do go for interviews as train crew. An interest is one thing, but smug assurances that you know so much already will NOT be looked upon favourably.

They prefer a blank canvas that they can paint the required picture on, not someone waving a picture saying 'look I have half painted it already!!'

The training provides the knowledge, and the course is structured to give a complete novice, but with the right qualities, the tools to do the job.

They are looking to see you have the right qualities, they are not interested in hearing that you think you already have many of the tools.

 

[Greenback]

I think that also applies to other new entrant level jobs, not just train crew or railway jobs!

 

[ChrisCooper]

Very true. I'm involved with training where I work and I find some of the worst are those who have come in from other companies doing the same or similar work as they have their own way of doing things which is not our way. It's a constant battle with higher up though who tend to want people with as much experiance as possible, as it reduces training, but what they don't seem to take in is that that's fine as long as they are happy for them to do their own thing. Instead though they are one of these companies that expects things done their way, so you often get experianced staff coming in and then being constantly failed in assesments because they can't get out of old habbits. Some of it is right, there are levels of sloppiness that are standard in the industy that management rightly wants to stamp out, but it's much easier to train people from the start to the high standards expected than to train years of sloppiness out of them.

 

[Rugd1022]

Some interesting posts in answer to the OP..... however, I don't think anyone has mentioned gradients yet, or any of the other countless aspects of being a driver! I know it's only a bit of fun but the reality of introducing something like this could be a logistical and legal nightmare...

Regular assessments, both practical and in the rules and regs, once a year with some companies..... to keep 'volunteers' up to scratch could cause some TOCs problems, if you've not driven over a route for six months or more you're supposed to have a review over it, sometimes it's hard enough for us 'regulars' to get them.

Traction knowledge - getting any spare instructors to cover volunteers as well as all their normal duties wouldn't be that easy.

Shift patterns - often unsociable and very long, particularly on the freight side - I don't think anyone has mentioned this so far either.... would anyone with (for example) a '9 to 5' full time job already be able to drop into another pattern of working at short notice, with the legally required amount of rest beforehand? If the general idea of the thread is to cover sickness, rest days, annual leave etc then this would be the reality of the situation!

Oh, one more thing.... who would pay for all that training?

 

[TDK]

I think if you can drive a train on BVE how different can it be to real life? Strange6 would hopefully back me up on this.

There is no comparison and I do sometimes get a little annoyed with people trying to tell me how to drive a class 67 because thay have tried it on BVE
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Whenever I'm doing anything handwritten or with pen & paper and I make a mistake I sometimes instinctively think "CTRL Z" rather than "where's the tippex".. I think I spend too much time drawing stuff with the PC!

Back on subject, I spend many hours honing the Network West Midlands routes on BVE4, and although my brake point timing for Frankley junction isn't perfect, I reckon I'd do well on it if it were IRL.

Probably not - you certainly wouldn't keep time and you don't actually have braking points as this is bad practice you have braking areas depending on the conditions
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Agreed. As a guard my view is out the back, what's been. I once had to help inspect the line on a route I know well as a guard but the drivers view was different again.

I'd also agree to be careful if any enthusiasts do go for interviews as train crew. An interest is one thing, but smug assurances that you know so much already will NOT be looked upon favourably.

They prefer a blank canvas that they can paint the required picture on, not someone waving a picture saying 'look I have half painted it already!!'

The training provides the knowledge, and the course is structured to give a complete novice, but with the right qualities, the tools to do the job.

They are looking to see you have the right qualities, they are not interested in hearing that you think you already have many of the tools.

If I interviewed someone and they said to me I know the route because I have done it on BVE I would have to bite my lip to prevent myself laughing at the person.

 

[Class172]

I'm not a driver or anything like that (too young) but I know from playing enough trainz that a £15 simulator is nothing like driving a real train; also, they cannot account for real life situations (it's not as if a cow is going to wonder onto the line and prevent you from continuing, in a simulator, your either going to drive though the cow unscathed or the cow won't be there in the first place!)

 

[Cherry_Picker]

It's just a game, isnt it? Ive been round the Nürburgring in seven and a half minutes on my Playstation.

 

[GB]

Ive also flown and landed a 747.... I think I will apply to BA tommorow!

 

[Mojo]

More recently, Great Eastern attempted to recruit commuters to act as guards in return for free travel. I don't think it came to anything.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/commuters-rush-to-fill-train-guard-jobs-1253094.html

Aside from the Sudbury Branch line, which routes did Great Eastern run that actually require guards?

Presumably this was for those small number of trains (is it 12 car 321s?) that require guards when stopping at certain stations. Wouldn't it have been cheaper to just update the DOO equipment?

 

[Class172]

Ive also flown and landed a 747.... I think I will apply to BA tommorow!

Imagine a space shuttle simulator - you land it safely then the next day you fly to NASA wanting a job as an astronaut!

 

[strange6]

There is no comparison and I do sometimes get a little annoyed with people trying to tell me how to drive a class 67 because thay have tried it on BVE

Whoaaaaa! I don't know what gave people the impression that I implied playing BVE gave some comparison to driving a real life chugger! BVE is enjoyable and the graphics are stunning, not to mention the controls in the cabs of various units, but real life it aint! lol

 

[Matt Taylor]

You didn't, but someone else did!

I think if you can drive a train on BVE how different can it be to real life? Strange6 would hopefully back me up on this.

 

[Anvil1984]

I forgot what the cab of a 156 looked like before I played it on the new Railworks add on and I sign the things (I'll get my coat)

 

[notadriver]

Ha ha very funny.