Kirkstall Forge Station Parking

[John E Varley]

The "Harrogate Line Rail User Group" has been promoting Kirkstall Forge Station as an alternative to Horsforth, it has been instrumental in having the service increased from hourly to half hourly. We are still trying to promote a park and ride station at Horsforth Woodside which is next to the ring road where the Harrogate line crosses it. At the moment there are no plans to increase the car parking at Kirkstall Forge. WYCA has a policy of not charging at its stations (except for large stations like Leeds). Northern as part of their franchise agreements have to starting charging at stations that are not in West or South Yorkshire, consequently Pannal now has a car parking charge of £3 a day (including Sundays) so a couple of years ago Pannal car park used to be full with commuters, now its just over half full. This is why the streets around Weeton and Horsforth are full of cars from North Yorkshire ( and they get the cheaper West Yorkshire fares).

It is rather pardoxical the the "Harrogate Line User Group" (HLUG) should promote Kirkstall Forge. Is it because peak time trains on the Harrogate Line can be overloaded beyond all reason, especially on an evening between Leeds and Horsforth? As a result, passengers for Harrogate and Knaresborough are made to stand for part of their journey. Wasn't it HLUG which opposed a tram-train link to Leeds & Bradford Airport? For some reason, they backed the Parkway station between Horsforth and Bramhope Tunnel instead. The pressure should be on the Department for Roads (sorry, Transport) to increase capacity not only between Harrogate and Leeds, but also between Harrogate and York. In that way, Harrogate and Knaresborough would benefit from a practical alternative link to the ECML without the hastle of travelling via Leeds.

Returning to Kirkstall Forge, I have two grouses.

Although originally there was only one morning (charge at Shipley) and one evening (direct) train to Bradford FS, I could literally halve my journey time to work. Now, as others point out, there is no point in trying to use Kirkstall after 09:15 because the car park is full. On my last visit, I had to drive home and get my wife to drive me back and catch a later train- still quicker than driving but what a farce!

I am sure that the car park suddenly began to fill up quickly when the office block, "Number One, Great Exhibition Way" opened. This was before the timetable changes but after the 'temporary"car park closed, so the timing may just be a coincidence. Nevertheless, KF. is a victim of its own success, and after great releif when it opened, I now rarely use it.

On one occasion I drove to KF at midday and witnessed someone in shirt-sleeves and wearing an identity badge walking out of the car park as I drove in. Finding no spaces, I parked in front of the new office block, and went to the reception to ask (naively) if commuters could park in the other car parks. The receptionist, politely told me that the other car parks were for the buildings tenants only. Even CEG, (the Kirkstall Forge Landlord)'s own staff could not park in them. She came in by train. Imagine my surprise then, that the person who I had seen walking out of the station car park, crossed the reception area and went into the private area of the building! I pointed this out to the receptionist who still politely, said that illegal parking was being monitored.

A few days later, at about 8am, on my way to catch a train (to Leeds on this occasion), did not the same person unload his bag from the boot of his car and walk straight to the office block!! When I called accross, with admittedly, an ironic tone, to point out that he perhaps had mistakenly parked in the wrong car park, which was for rail-users, I received a typically arrogant, "really?" in response. As I waited for the Bradford train on a subsequent occasion, I witnessed another similar occurrence.

Maybe logging the car registration number when buying a train ticket could be an option? Season ticket holders and on-line ticket purchases could also be accommodated in the same way. BT police could monitor the parking based upon which cars did not belong to bona-fide travellers.

Phew! Got that off my chest. Anyone else feel like me?

John

 

[Killingworth]

It is rather pardoxical the the "Harrogate Line User Group" (HLUG) should promote Kirkstall Forge. Is it because peak time trains on the Harrogate Line can be overloaded beyond all reason, especially on an evening between Leeds and Horsforth? As a result, passengers for Harrogate and Knaresborough are made to stand for part of their journey. Wasn't it HLUG which opposed a tram-train link to Leeds & Bradford Airport? For some reason, they backed the Parkway station between Horsforth and Bramhope Tunnel instead. The pressure should be on the Department for Roads (sorry, Transport) to increase capacity not only between Harrogate and Leeds, but also between Harrogate and York. In that way, Harrogate and Knaresborough would benefit from a practical alternative link to the ECML without the hastle of travelling via Leeds.

Returning to Kirkstall Forge, I have two grouses.

Although originally there was only one morning (charge at Shipley) and one evening (direct) train to Bradford FS, I could literally halve my journey time to work. Now, as others point out, there is no point in trying to use Kirkstall after 09:15 because the car park is full. On my last visit, I had to drive home and get my wife to drive me back and catch a later train- still quicker than driving but what a farce!

I am sure that the car park suddenly began to fill up quickly when the office block, "Number One, Great Exhibition Way" opened. This was before the timetable changes but after the 'temporary"car park closed, so the timing may just be a coincidence. Nevertheless, KF. is a victim of its own success, and after great releif when it opened, I now rarely use it.

On one occasion I drove to KF at midday and witnessed someone in shirt-sleeves and wearing an identity badge walking out of the car park as I drove in. Finding no spaces, I parked in front of the new office block, and went to the reception to ask (naively) if commuters could park in the other car parks. The receptionist, politely told me that the other car parks were for the buildings tenants only. Even CEG, (the Kirkstall Forge Landlord)'s own staff could not park in them. She came in by train. Imagine my surprise then, that the person who I had seen walking out of the station car park, crossed the reception area and went into the private area of the building! I pointed this out to the receptionist who still politely, said that illegal parking was being monitored.

A few days later, at about 8am, on my way to catch a train (to Leeds on this occasion), did not the same person unload his bag from the boot of his car and walk straight to the office block!! When I called accross, with admittedly, an ironic tone, to point out that he perhaps had mistakenly parked in the wrong car park, which was for rail-users, I received a typically arrogant, "really?" in response. As I waited for the Bradford train on a subsequent occasion, I witnessed another similar occurrence.

Maybe logging the car registration number when buying a train ticket could be an option? Season ticket holders and on-line ticket purchases could also be accommodated in the same way. BT police could monitor the parking based upon which cars did not belong to bona-fide travellers.

Phew! Got that off my chest. Anyone else feel like me?

John

Yes. At Dore & Totley we have 3 restaurants within the confines of the original station site (curiously a goods yard was never built). Only one is open during the day but users of all three, customers and staff, grab any car park space they can find, and park outside bays if they can't, restricting the entrance and exit.

With limited TPE services direct to Manchester Airport, and hourly connections, we've got another issue, those who park freely for a week or two while off on holiday.

That's what free parking does, not just helping the people it was provided for, but unintended other users.

 

[lyndhurst25]

The most effective way to solve the Silsden parking problems would be to reopen Crosshills

I hope that your new station plan wouldn't also include a car park as that would also be the most effective way of causing gridlock in Crosshills. Station Road in Crosshills is currently standing traffic during much of the day due to motorists taking that route to avoid Kildwick level crossing.

Solutions to the Steeton & Silsden access problem:
- footbridge over Aire Valley trunk road for pedestrians and cyclists coming from Silsden. (£750000 just for the paperwork to build a footbridge. Really???)
- walking and cycle route through housing and industrial estates for passengers from Airedale hospital.
- better bus links (with integrated ticketing!). The station was built with a bus turning circle but it's currently only used by the infrequent 903 local service. Silsden is already served by the 62 Ilkley to Keighley bus that passes the station. That leaves Cowling, Glusburn, Crosshills, Sutton, Eastburn and Airedale Hospital without any decent public transport links to the station. Diverting the M4 Burnley to Keighley bus via the station and then via the trunk road would serve all those places apart from Sutton, and would probably give faster journey times for bus passengers into Keighley. Alternatively the Skipton to Keighley bus service could divert via the the station turning circle.
- reopen Crosshills station (along with a road bridge to replace Kildwick level crossing!). However, Crosshills would be in North Yorkshire, so passengers would preferentially use Steeton & Silsden to take advantage of WYPTE fares. The fact that this area straddles the West Yorks / North Yorks border seems to have produced a lack of joined up thinking with respect to public transport.

 

[Grumpy]

I hope that your new station plan wouldn't also include a car park as that would also be the most effective way of causing gridlock in Crosshills. Station Road in Crosshills is currently standing traffic during much of the day due to motorists taking that route to avoid Kildwick level crossing.

.

Crosshills certainly would include a car park. Many of the present Steeton users probably travel from the Crosshiils direction and providing a car park there would give relief to Steeton in preference to providing more parking there.

I don’t recognize your description of Station road as being standing traffic for much of the day. Whilst you might have to wait a minute or so to exit at either end it’s hardly gridlock-even in the peaks. In any case a proportion of the traffic will be cars making their way to Steeton. Surely better that locals can walk/cycle to Crosshills than drive to Steeton.

You refer to the 62 Keighley to Ilkley bus. In fact half the journeys through the day extend to the airport via Otley, calling in at Menston station, so it seems strange that they don’t call in at Steeton.

 

[Steve fowler]

i went to Kirkstall Forge Station yesterday with the intention of spending a while on the platform doing a bit of spotting and photos etc. It’s a while since I was last there and the station car park which holds about 100 cars at a guess was completely full. There are other car parks but they are for the offices and you need a pass to get in. Apart from a handful of on street parking places (all of which were taken) the rest of the area is double yellow lines. I stopped in a ‘pull in’ lay-by for the main office block to gather my thoughts and decide what to do, when immediately someone from the office block came out and asked what my intention were as I could not park there. (This was literally less than one minute after pulling in) They were very pleasant and explained that this was an increasing problem and if the car park was full the only alternative was to drive back to the main road (which is all double yellow lines) and onto a residential area and use the on street parking, which if you are familiar with the area is a considerable distance, and still a busy road if you wanted to leave your car there for several hours.

Does anyone know if there is any intention to provide more parking because if I wanting to park and ride on a regular basis it would certainly put me off?

Visited Kirkstall forge station yesterday for first time and was stunned at the miniscule amount of car parking. Every space taken at 11.30am on a Tuesday so drove away and went to Leeds in the car instead. Did the planners build the car park for 'toy town' as usual complete underestimated, does anyone every lose their jobs due to sheer incompetence. Won't ever attempt to use the station again.

 

[bluenoxid]

Depends what the planners want to achieve. Free car parking costs money (design, construction and maintenance plus land take) and any charges in this area attract criticism. Every car parking space is a piece of land. And as discussed previously, going underground is not feasible

 

[geoffk]

A number of issues here. Steeton and Silsden is the first/last station in West Yorkshire and I know that folks drive from as far away as Burnley to take advantage of the cheaper fares. The same here in Littleborough and other border stations. One solution is to even out the jump in fares across the boundary so there's less incentive to rail-head.

Apperley Bridge - there are virtually no homes within walking distance of the station so it's almost totally dependent on car users. A local street has even been blocked off with a high wooden fence to prevent access to the station by people who live there - a planning condition, I was told.

Free parking is great but demand at some stations is almost unlimited - recent extensions at Todmorden and Sowerby Bridge soon filled up, while at Hebden Bridge parking takes place along the busy A646 for some distance. I remember Bristol Parkway and Kemble being free but there's a hefty charge now and you'd struggle to find anywhere else within walking distance.

Use by non-rail users is often an issue, e.g. at Brighouse, where parking in town is charged. Metro wanted to buy an adjacent bit of land to extend the car park but were outbid by the private sector. The new Bromsgrove station is way out of the town centre so the car park is unlikely to be used by shoppers but nevertheless there's a parking charge. Logging the car registration number when buying a train ticket - I saw this was being done at Whitehaven, where the station is next to a Tesco's. That means you have to wait at the ticket office to give your details even if you've already got a ticket.

No easy answers. Alternatives are to promote cycling to the station or using the bus!

 

[geoffk]

- reopen Crosshills station (along with a road bridge to replace Kildwick level crossing!). However, Crosshills would be in North Yorkshire, so passengers would preferentially use Steeton & Silsden to take advantage of WYPTE fares. The fact that this area straddles the West Yorks / North Yorks border seems to have produced a lack of joined up thinking with respect to public transport.

Yes, a well populated area. Cononley doesn't need four trains an hour so two each for Cononley and Crosshills - the question is, which two, two Leeds or two Bradfords? One of each means 15/45 minute intervals between trains, not so good if you want to go to Skipton or Keighley.

 

[superkev]

Visited Kirkstall forge station yesterday for first time and was stunned at the miniscule amount of car parking. Every space taken at 11.30am on a Tuesday so drove away and went to Leeds in the car instead. Did the planners build the car park for 'toy town' as usual complete underestimated, does anyone every lose their jobs due to sheer incompetence. Won't ever attempt to use the station again.

11.30am wow. Try park at any of the Calder valley stations after 7.15 and you may struggle.
Incidentally I heard that Network rail cost a car park space at £20000. Must be gold in there tarmac. At Sowerby they a bench was costed at £6000.
K

 

[30907]

You refer to the 62 Keighley to Ilkley bus. In fact half the journeys through the day extend to the airport via Otley, calling in at Menston station, so it seems strange that they don’t call in at Steeton.

Those are the ones that DO call at Steeton, just not at the turning circle.

Visited Kirkstall forge station yesterday for first time and was stunned at the miniscule amount of car parking. Every space taken at 11.30am on a Tuesday so drove away and went to Leeds in the car instead. Did the planners build the car park for 'toy town' as usual complete underestimated, does anyone every lose their jobs due to sheer incompetence. Won't ever attempt to use the station again.

Post #31 suggests a probable reason.

 

[Condor7]

Depends what the planners want to achieve. Free car parking costs money (design, construction and maintenance plus land take) and any charges in this area attract criticism.

This is true, but every parking space also produces revenue, and keeps vehicles off the roads.

 

[thejuggler]

From initial concept of Kirkstall Forge development to to the station opening was about 15 years.

Trying to guess how big a car park will need to be 15 years ahead is impossible - there will be reports and surveys to try and estimate expected patronage, but lots of other factors can influence the figures.

Build it too big and there are empty spaces so its seen a waste of money, too small and it disappoints when people try and use it. When taken in and amongst the whole development the car park will have been deemed adequate for expected levels of use, but as for Apperley Bridge this has been far exceeded. I'm sure it has also attracted users from Headingley and Horsforth stations as they have barely any car parking.

There is no doubt Leeds is far far busier than it was 10 years ago, car parking charges have become ever more expensive - no more £3 all day 'bomb sites'. Park for free and pay a few quid for a day return on the train is a much cheaper option than sitting in traffic for an hour along Kirkstall Road and then paying £6 minimum in a car park a long way from the centre.

 

[deltic08]

From initial concept of Kirkstall Forge development to to the station opening was about 15 years.

Trying to guess how big a car park will need to be 15 years ahead is impossible - there will be reports and surveys to try and estimate expected patronage, but lots of other factors can influence the figures.

Build it too big and there are empty spaces so its seen a waste of money, too small and it disappoints when people try and use it. When taken in and amongst the whole development the car park will have been deemed adequate for expected levels of use, but as for Apperley Bridge this has been far exceeded. I'm sure it has also attracted users from Headingley and Horsforth stations as they have barely any car parking.

There is no doubt Leeds is far far busier than it was 10 years ago, car parking charges have become ever more expensive - no more £3 all day 'bomb sites'. Park for free and pay a few quid for a day return on the train is a much cheaper option than sitting in traffic for an hour along Kirkstall Road and then paying £6 minimum in a car park a long way from the centre.

More railheads are needed by reinstating lines closed in the 1960s. They would be viable now due to rapid population growth.

Subsequent research has discovered that Beeching could not subtract. He subtracted annual operating costs from fare box takings at Ripon Booking Office and found it was negative at -£13,000 when it should have been in profit of +£18,000. Whether or not it was deliberate, we shall never know but we lost our railway line as a result.

As part of the campaign to reinstate the railway from Ripon to Harrohate even ten years ago, we surveyed every third house in Ripon to find the number of daily commuters to Harrogate and Leeds. Many Leeds commuters volunteered the information that they drove to Pannal, Weeton or Horsforth before they were able to find a station car park space as the Harrohate station car parks were full.

We concluded that another railhead was needed to the north of Harrogate, not necessarily Ripon, Nidd Bridge would do, for the Ripon and Nidderdale commuters alone with a car park of 300 spaces. That would relieve all railheads between here and Leeds for other more local residents.

If Ripon was reopened, the station car park would have to be at least 400 spaces to cater for passengers travelling northwards as well as towards Leeds.