Kirkstall Forge & Apperley Bridge

[61653 HTAFC]

Forster Square began being used for Kings Cross services in the mid-1980s, long before GNER and before the wiring was installed. I'm not sure when P3 was extended but it would make sense to have been any time from then onwards.
Previous strategies for the area had ruled out any major rebuild of the Shipley triangle on cost and disruption grounds, which in the long term restricts Leeds to Skipton services to 6x23m. I have no reason to assume that position has changed.
Back to Kirkstall and Apperley, I find it astonishing that there's only room for one service per hour to call, given the 30min intervals for all local services in the area. Surely if a call can be fitted in one it could be fitted in the other, too? The business case for these stations was presumably based upon 2tph to Leeds and Bradford, so it could be said that any funding received for the project was obtained under false pretences?

 

[Oswyntail]

... I'm not sure when p3 was extended but it would make sense to have been any time from then onwards....

1990.

 

[30907]

And part of it was temporary, in wood, as Leeds Jn was single at the time and the track was to be slewed later.

 

[bluenoxid]

Are these just forum members aspirational thoughts or has any similar matter been subject to any official thoughts in past times?

This is a thought based on recalling space being available if a decision was made. There has never been any suggestion of moving P3 and P4 officially or otherwise.

 

[johntea]

The Summer/Autumn National Rail timetable starts on Sunday 17 May and runs until Saturday 12 December 2015. Changes that will introduced include:
Airedale and Wharfedale Lines and also Leeds-Bradford Forster Square services

Services on these routes will be retimed in readiness for the opening of the new stations at Kirkstall Forge and Apperley Bridge later in the year. Please look out for further information nearer the opening date.

A new Monday to Friday journey will be introduced at 0832 from Leeds to Bradford Forster Square calling at Shipley only.

Seems a bit odd having a Leeds to Bradford Forster Square service missing out Frizinghall, although a very useful one for me personally as it means if I miss the 0825 Leeds to Skipton I can catch the 0832 to Shipley and get to the 0849 Shipley to Skipton now!

 

[BantamMenace]

The Summer/Autumn National Rail timetable starts on Sunday 17 May and runs until Saturday 12 December 2015. Changes that will introduced include:
Airedale and Wharfedale Lines and also Leeds-Bradford Forster Square services

Services on these routes will be retimed in readiness for the opening of the new stations at Kirkstall Forge and Apperley Bridge later in the year. Please look out for further information nearer the opening date.

A new Monday to Friday journey will be introduced at 0832 from Leeds to Bradford Forster Square calling at Shipley only.

Seems a bit odd having a Leeds to Bradford Forster Square service missing out Frizinghall, although a very useful one for me personally as it means if I miss the 0825 Leeds to Skipton I can catch the 0832 to Shipley and get to the 0849 Shipley to Skipton now!

Thats surely a typo and it will stop at Frizinghall, that is prime time for the Grammar school just up the road from the station.

 

[30907]

A new Monday to Friday journey will be introduced at 0832 from Leeds to Bradford Forster Square calling at Shipley only.

Seems a bit odd having a Leeds to Bradford Forster Square service missing out Frizinghall, although a very useful one for me personally as it means if I miss the 0825 Leeds to Skipton I can catch the 0832 to Shipley and get to the 0849 Shipley to Skipton now!

Even odder if there's no balancing working. Will have to wait and see...

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Thats surely a typo and it will stop at Frizinghall, that is prime time for the Grammar school just up the road from the station.

Nope...

 

[Bantamzen]

Nope...

Interesting that this service is showing as a class 321. I wonder if this is replacing the current ECS move from Leeds to Bradford FS that sits on platform 3 for most of the day to form what is currently the 16:11 to Skipton? That is usually a 321. It might explain why it misses out Frizinghall.

 

[BantamMenace]

Interesting that this service is showing as a class 321. I wonder if this is replacing the current ECS move from Leeds to Bradford FS that sits on platform 3 for most of the day to form what is currently the 16:11 to Skipton? That is usually a 321. It might explain why it misses out Frizinghall.

Why does that explain it missing a simple stop that must take 2 minutes max? I find it a little odd especially as i say it is prime time for the school.

 

[Deerfold]

Thats surely a typo and it will stop at Frizinghall, that is prime time for the Grammar school just up the road from the station.

I did wonder if that was deliberately why it doesn't stop there - if registration is still at the 0900 it was when I was there that's not very long to get there without being late - so potentially many youngsters being in an enormous rush all at the same time on a fairly small platform - this could be seen as a safety risk.

 

[Andyh82]

Seems to run at exactly the same time as the current ECS move, and if it stopped at Frizinghall it would presumably conflict with the train from Ilkley 2 mins behind

 

[Bantamzen]

Seems to run at exactly the same time as the current ECS move, and if it stopped at Frizinghall it would presumably conflict with the train from Ilkley 2 mins behind

Indeed, this is the current ECS move:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y57595/2015/04/16/advanced

So it's exactly the same path with an extra minute pegged onto it's arrival at Bradford to allow for a halt at Shipley. And the following service coming from ilkley usually has only a short turnaround at BDQ before heading back out as the 09:01 to Leeds. So presumably the decision has been made so as to not disrupt this flow. It makes more sense for the Ilkley service to stop at Frizinghall, as most of the school traffic to there comes down from the Aire / Wharfe Valley rather than from the East. So an additional Leeds service not stopping at Frizinghall isn't going to cause as much of an issue as an Ilkley one.

 

[Grumpy]

Photo of Apperley down platform works. Up just visible through bridge.
Apopogies for quality-taken by phone. Also first attempt at uploading

 

[BantamMenace]

Photo of Apperley down platform works. Up just visible through bridge.
Apopogies for quality-taken by phone. Also first attempt at uploading

Good photo but that does appear relatively conclusive to the ambition of requadrifying the track at any point in the future to my untrained eye.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The summer Airedale Line timetable features both stations with a note that they will open during the currency of the timetable.

 

[Starmill]

Good photo but that does appear relatively conclusive to the ambition of requadrifying the track at any point in the future to my untrained eye.

We live in a nation of motorists that does not care about public transport. There's currently a General Election campaign going on, how many times have you heard transport or the environment mentioned in the debate? I have only heard Natalie Bennett (quite rightly, and to her credit above everyone else) talk about reducing pollution and tackling climate change. The only other thing I've heard is a desire to cancel HS2 from the biggest **** there is - without any commitment to improve local transport.

Sadly I think you are entirely right. The whole point is that we don't care about public transport even where it is demonstrably successful, such as in the Aire valley. You want to get somewhere? Be rich enough to run your own car, and to hell with the planet.

These two stations being built are tiny victories in a sea of deficient in both quality and quantity and massively overpriced public transport in the UK. We should celebrate them, yes, but in the grand scheme of things they change nothing.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

These two stations being built are tiny victories in a sea of deficient in both quality and quantity and massively overpriced public transport in the UK. We should celebrate them, yes, but in the grand scheme of things they change nothing.

Being now a septuagenarian, matters of the 1980's onwards seem very fresh in my mind, but I can most certainly recall quite a number of railway stations both new and reopened that appeared in that time period, some of which were at the behest of PTE authorities.

 

[Starmill]

Being now a septuagenarian, matters of the 1980's onwards seem very fresh in my mind, but I can most certainly recall quite a number of railway stations both new and reopened that appeared in that time period, some of which were at the behest of PTE authorities.

And how many have opened in the past 5 years? And how many fantastic opportunities are there for stations on lines that already exist, that go unfunded? As a percentage of these, the ones that have reopened are tiny. And look at Slaithwaite and Outwood - they are falling apart now. This is to say nothing of population centres taken off the railway map.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And how many have opened in the past 5 years? And how many fantastic opportunities are there for stations on lines that already exist, that go unfunded? As a percentage of these, the ones that have reopened are tiny. And look at Slaithwaite and Outwood - they are falling apart now. This is to say nothing of population centres taken off the railway map.

With regards to your query, the following are heavy-rail railway stations that have opened in the time period that you have stated:-

2010
Bathgate
Blackridge
Dalston Junction
Haggerton
Hoxton
Shoreditch High Street

2011
Armadale
Buckshaw Parkway
Drumgelloch

2012
Fishguard and Goodwick

2013
Conon Bridge
Stratford-upon-Avon Parkway

2014
James Cook
Pye Corner

I could also have named many light-rail stations that have been opened in the same period, but have not done so, as I am sure that you can access this information yourself.

 

[Bantamzen]

Good photo but that does appear relatively conclusive to the ambition of requadrifying the track at any point in the future to my untrained eye.

Perhaps so, although looking at the southern end of the bridge, that appears to be a bit too low for wires so a fair amount of engineering would be need to rectify that. And if you are going to be looking at re-configuring or replacing it, then it's not beyond reason to re-engineer the station to allow four tracking either by making the west-bound platform an island either for the duration of the works, or permanently.

However what will be the end of any ambitions for four-tracking will be Kirkstall Forge. Not only will the station limit opportunities to four track, but the development itself will encroach onto the old trackbed leaving not enough room for 4 lines. The linked imagine demonstrates this:

http://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/Pictures/web/y/d/h/masterplancolour.jpg

If you zoom in on the imagine, you'll see the areas where some of the proposed development lies across the northern part of the trackbed, with the existing line situated in the southern section of it.

 

[bluenoxid]

With regards to your query, the following are heavy-rail railway stations that have opened in the time period that you have stated:-

2010
Bathgate
Blackridge
Dalston Junction
Haggerton
Hoxton
Shoreditch High Street

2011
Armadale
Buckshaw Parkway
Drumgelloch

2012
Fishguard and Goodwick

2013
Conon Bridge
Stratford-upon-Avon Parkway

2014
James Cook
Pye Corner

I could also have named many light-rail stations that have been opened in the same period, but have not done so, as I am sure that you can access this information yourself.

You have missed a few Paul Southend Airport from 2011 and Energlyn from 2013.

I know the link is incorrect technically as these are openings as well as reopenings

http://trundleage.co.uk/about/reopened-railway-stations/

 

[Grumpy]

A few more. The shot of the site entrance shows the significant earthworks needed to create an access road by cutting through a hill. The much cheaper solution would have been to extend Little Lane although the residents might not have been too happy (but no doubt will be happy by their property values increasing)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You have missed a few Paul Southend Airport from 2011 and Energlyn from 2013.

I know the link is incorrect technically as these are openings as well as reopenings

http://trundleage.co.uk/about/reopened-railway-stations/

If you look at what unearthly time of the morning that I made my posting, all details coming from memory, it was not all that bad an effort, I am sure that you will agree..

 

[Starmill]

I'm pretty familiar with the list, thanks Paul, I've been to most of them. My point is it's a trickle where there's room for a waterfall.

 

[BantamMenace]

Perhaps so, although looking at the southern end of the bridge, that appears to be a bit too low for wires so a fair amount of engineering would be need to rectify that. And if you are going to be looking at re-configuring or replacing it, then it's not beyond reason to re-engineer the station to allow four tracking either by making the west-bound platform an island either for the duration of the works, or permanently.

However what will be the end of any ambitions for four-tracking will be Kirkstall Forge. Not only will the station limit opportunities to four track, but the development itself will encroach onto the old trackbed leaving not enough room for 4 lines. The linked imagine demonstrates this:

http://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/Pictures/web/y/d/h/masterplancolour.jpg

If you zoom in on the imagine, you'll see the areas where some of the proposed development lies across the northern part of the trackbed, with the existing line situated in the southern section of it.

The design of this development may have been the final nail in the coffin for 4 tracking then meaning that such a consideration need not be made at Apperley Bridge.

I do hope given these developments that there has been consideration for extension to 150m platforms and nothing entirely insurmountable for 200m platforms in the future. 6-car half hourly seems the only way to go on the Airedale and Wharfedale corridors in the coming years with only the much discussed Shipley P1 and P2 being an issue although not fatal to such an aspiration.

The sooner Rail North gets power and money to move rail in these key commuter areas forward the better. A longer term ambition i'd like to see is two franchises in the north, one Leeds based and north east, another Manchester based and north west.

Using the Leeds based east side one as an example, I believe there is huge potential for growth into Leeds with atleast 2tph 4-car electrified services on the corridors from Harrogate, York, Selby, Castleford, Sheffield, Bradford Int and Huddersfield like we currently have from Skipton, Bradford FS, Ilkley and Doncaster. Bring on the 319s for 15 years and then lets have something new with options for extension to 5 and 6 car in future years if necessary.

 

[D a v e]

I call by the site every few weeks and post a few pictures here for anyone who might be interested.

 

[quantinghome]

The design of this development may have been the final nail in the coffin for 4 tracking then meaning that such a consideration need not be made at Apperley Bridge.

Hasn't the Farnell building at Armley Canal Road nailed it already? Station platforms can be moved - I think this was done on the Evergreen upgrades for Chiltern.

The solution may be to build any future stations between Leeds and Shipley on loops to allow overtaking by faster trains. It's interesting to see that the new station report did not rule out a station on the ring road at Rodley, rather it recommended a wait and see approach until the new stations have bedded in.

I do hope given these developments that there has been consideration for extension to 150m platforms and nothing entirely insurmountable for 200m platforms in the future. 6-car half hourly seems the only way to go on the Airedale and Wharfedale corridors in the coming years with only the much discussed Shipley P1 and P2 being an issue although not fatal to such an aspiration.

The sooner Rail North gets power and money to move rail in these key commuter areas forward the better. A longer term ambition i'd like to see is two franchises in the north, one Leeds based and north east, another Manchester based and north west.

Using the Leeds based east side one as an example, I believe there is huge potential for growth into Leeds with atleast 2tph 4-car electrified services on the corridors from Harrogate, York, Selby, Castleford, Sheffield, Bradford Int and Huddersfield like we currently have from Skipton, Bradford FS, Ilkley and Doncaster. Bring on the 319s for 15 years and then lets have something new with options for extension to 5 and 6 car in future years if necessary.

Completely agree, however many of these lines have considerable intercity traffic which might make it difficult to run a more intense commuter service.

 

[D a v e]

Kirkstall Forge Site Slow Motion video taken on 24th April 2015 available here.

 

[Deerfold]

The summer Airedale Line timetable features both stations with a note that they will open during the currency of the timetable.

As the timetables have finally been posted I was eager to see what's running. There's no clue at all in the timetables as to which trains will be calling at them - still less when they will call. Back to the waiting.