Kirkstall Forge & Apperley Bridge

[Bantamzen]

Note the spin about "two trains calling per hour" without mentioning that's one in each direction to/from different places.

I thought it was Kirkstall that was to have the different services calling at it. That in itself doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but if they are different services calling at Apperley then that's madness. Apperley Bridge is part of Bradford so surely it makes sense to have the Bradford-Leeds services calling there, especially with the developments in the city opening shortly after Apperley is due to open? Even with different services calling at Kirkstall, at least they would both serve to and from Leeds.

Hopefully common sense will kick in before the timetables are set in stone....

<crosses everything :eek: >

 

[Deerfold]

I thought it was Kirkstall that was to have the different services calling at it. That in itself doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but if they are different services calling at Apperley then that's madness. Apperley Bridge is part of Bradford so surely it makes sense to have the Bradford-Leeds services calling there, especially with the developments in the city opening shortly after Apperley is due to open? Even with different services calling at Kirkstall, at least they would both serve to and from Leeds.

Hopefully common sense will kick in before the timetables are set in stone....

<crosses everything :eek: >

I could be wrong - I assumed they'd have the same trains calling bit can't find confirmation of this anywhere. It seems to be very quiet where and why it got changed from 2 trains an hour in each direction.

I would have thought it would make sense for the Bradford - Leeds services to call at both in each direction as these are not already full - although we're talking about more stock this is only because of extended journey times, not more journeys.

 

[Bantamzen]

I could be wrong - I assumed they'd have the same trains calling bit can't find confirmation of this anywhere. It seems to be very quiet where and why it got changed from 2 trains an hour in each direction.

I would have thought it would make sense for the Bradford - Leeds services to call at both in each direction as these are not already full - although we're talking about more stock this is only because of extended journey times, not more journeys.

It would make sense, although the timetable would need to be reworked some even with extra stock. Heading towards Leeds from Shipley the Bradford leaves at xx.09 & xx.39 with the Skiptons running 5 later. So the latter would soon trip over the former. But using them for the new stops does make most sense and should be fairly easy to convert into a 2tph if demand is there.

As for extra stock, once the 322s have all been upgraded with the new DDA toilets will there be spare capacity with them. At least one 321/322 spends much of the day stabled at Forster Square.

 

[Starmill]

As for extra stock, once the 322s have all been upgraded with the new DDA toilets will there be spare capacity with them. At least one 321/322 spends much of the day stabled at Forster Square.

You're sure? Shouldn't the fleet's utlisation just return to the status quo post-refit of the 322s?

 

[Bantamzen]

You're sure? Shouldn't the fleet's utlisation just return to the status quo post-refit of the 322s?

There's certainly one unit booked as an ECS movement from Leeds to Forster Square that arrives on platform 3 at BDQ 08:51 (this was yesterday's):

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y79772/2014/11/21/advanced

This then stays there until it forms the 16:11 to Skipton:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y77668/2014/11/21/advanced

Although it does replace the 16:01 arrival from Leeds which runs back as an ECS a few minutes later:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y79824/2014/11/21/advanced

I don't know if this is an indication that there is enough spare capacity to allow future services to stop at both the new stations though. But saying that Northern aren't going to get any additional EMUs for this route, so they'll have to be able to utilise the existing 321/322/333s anyway so there must be some wriggle room for them somewhere.

 

[alexl92]

What's the point in running a 321 empty to BDQ and leaving it there for almost 7 1/2 hours doing nothing?

 

[Deerfold]

What's the point in running a 321 empty to BDQ and leaving it there for almost 7 1/2 hours doing nothing?

Perhaps it's available in case any other units fail without having to get something from Neville Hill?

 

[BantamMenace]

Perhaps it's available in case any other units fail without having to get something from Neville Hill?

Or the crew that take it to BDQ are needed to run services but the unit isnt.

 

[alexl92]

Or the crew that take it to BDQ are needed to run services but the unit isnt.

That makes sense.

 

[Grumpy]

Had a nosey at the Apperley site today. They still seem to be concentrating effort on the car park area, but there has been a lot of tree etc clearance by the tracks and they appear to be starting work on foundations for the down platform.

 

[davetheguard]

Had a nosey at the Apperley site today. They still seem to be concentrating effort on the car park area, but there has been a lot of tree etc clearance by the tracks and they appear to be starting work on foundations for the down platform.

Thanks a lot for the update Grumpy; it's good to hear of progress on it.

 

[BantamMenace]

Any news on any progress here?

 

[lejog]

I could be wrong - I assumed they'd have the same trains calling bit can't find confirmation of this anywhere. It seems to be very quiet where and why it got changed from 2 trains an hour in each direction.

I would have thought it would make sense for the Bradford - Leeds services to call at both in each direction as these are not already full - although we're talking about more stock this is only because of extended journey times, not more journeys.

The Northern ITT Service Spec now quotes 2tph for Apperley Bridge and 1tph for Kirkstall Forge from 2017 (in each direction). It gives no indication of calling patterns though.

 

[Deerfold]

The Northern ITT Service Spec now quotes 2tph for Apperley Bridge and 1tph for Kirkstall Forge from 2017 (in each direction). It gives no indication of calling patterns though.

Indeed - it's a shame the Apperley Bridge frequency seems to have dropped with no public discussion or explanation. Does this not affect the business case (and the ITT gives no suggestion that this is merely an initial frequency to be increased later).

 

[158756]

Indeed - it's a shame the Apperley Bridge frequency seems to have dropped with no public discussion or explanation. Does this not affect the business case (and the ITT gives no suggestion that this is merely an initial frequency to be increased later).

May I ask what the frequency was supposed to be?
The ITT says 2tph and I can't seem to find reference to more in this thread.

 

[Grumpy]

Any news on any progress here?

Passed Kirkstall on the train last week. Nothing really shooting out of the ground on the commercial development but they now have a few cranes in situ. Some work taking place near to the up line, but difficult to tell if beginnings of a platform or merely a retaining wall for something else-trains pass the site at speed so only time for a quick glimpse. Certainly the job's started.

 

[Deerfold]

May I ask what the frequency was supposed to be?
The ITT says 2tph and I can't seem to find reference to more in this thread.

Apologies - I meant the frequency drop for Kirkstall Forge (originally supposed to be 2tph - the original suggestion was that both stations would be served by Forster Square - Leeds trains).

 

[Bantamzen]

Apperley Bridge set to be open in the summer, but with only 1tph. But at least it sounds like it will be a Bradford-Leeds service in each direction, and the door is open for the opposite clock-face service to eventually call there too:

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co....t_train_station_on_track_to_open_this_summer/

BRADFORD'S newest train station is on track to be up-and-running this summer.

The under-construction £10m station, at Apperley Bridge, will open to passengers in five months' time, 50 years after the old station there was closed.

Yesterday, local MP David Ward and ward councillor Jeanette Sunderland (Lib Dem, Idle and Thackley) were given a tour of the site, off Apperley Lane, to see how work was progressing.

Contractors from construction firm Spencer said the build was on-target for its end-of-August opening, with the passenger platforms, 300-space car park and access road now well under way.

Dan Guiher, Network Rail commercial scheme sponsor, said: "The progress every time I am here is astounding. I look forward to coming back in a month and seeing the platform surfaces in."

He said as part of the design, they had been able to keep three established oak trees, which would sit near some new ponds dug to collect run-off rainwater.

He said: "That was one of our intentions - to leave the site as green as we possibly could."

The new station is being funded by the Department for Transport, with some cash from the West Yorkshire Combined Authority.

Once it is up-and-running, it will have one train an hour in each direction on the Bradford to Leeds line, with the potential to increase this if passenger numbers grow.

Apperley Bridge's old train station closed because of the Beeching Axe in 1965. Plans to re-open it were first announced in 1999, although years of delays followed.

Mr Ward, Liberal Democrat MP for Bradford East, said the station had been a long time coming and would be a "big boost to the area".

He said: "It is great to see it actually happening. I was a ward councillor for this area for many years and this was something we campaigned on year after year after year.

"At times we did wonder whether it would actually happen."

Cllr Sunderland quizzed rail bosses about how safe the unstaffed station would be, especially at night, and was told it would be well-lit with a live-monitored CCTV system.

She said: "It is a lonely bit of the world. I'm now assured it will be a safe place to come.

"I come back to Bradford late at night, so this would be the station I would use and I would want to feel safe."

Cllr Sunderland said she hoped the railway station would alleviate congestion on some of the area's busy roads.

She said: "Local roads are really badly congested. Part of having a railway station is to encourage people to get out of their cars and onto the railways for their journey to work, and this has good access for Leeds and Bradford."

 

[Starmill]

I take it that means that Skipton services will call there after the Last Bradford F Sq train leaves Leeds at 1910? The last train that would pass through in the current timetable of course, the 2318 to Skipton. IMHO there should be a 2345ish to Bradford.

 

[Bantamzen]

I take it that means that Skipton services will call there after the Last Bradford F Sq train leaves Leeds at 1910? The last train that would pass through in the current timetable of course, the 2318 to Skipton. IMHO there should be a 2345ish to Bradford.

I'm really not sure. I would like to think that this is a precursor for some evening Leeds-Bradford FS services, because aside from possible crew and stock issues I've never really understood why there is no evening services especially given that a shuttle runs between Bradford & Shipley.

 

[yorksrob]

Well, it's good news anyway. There are plenty of well used stations already on the West Yorkshire network that have to put up with hourly services and early finishes. Perhaps they're waiting for the station to prove itself before going half hourly.

 

[Deerfold]

I take it that means that Skipton services will call there after the Last Bradford F Sq train leaves Leeds at 1910? The last train that would pass through in the current timetable of course, the 2318 to Skipton. IMHO there should be a 2345ish to Bradford.

Oh boy. The 2318 to get even busier?

 

[BantamMenace]

Have these two stations been designed with provision for future extension? I think we'll see longer services on the Airedale and Wharfedale lines within the next 15 years, certainly 5, possibly 6-car. After a quick run through in my head only Shipley P1, P2 and maybe P5 cause an issue.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just to put my mind at rest, what situation will the new Apperley Bridge station be when compared to the closed station site?

 

[IanD]

It will be to the West of Apperley Lane whereas the old site was to the East.

 

[Bantamzen]

Have these two stations been designed with provision for future extension? I think we'll see longer services on the Airedale and Wharfedale lines within the next 15 years, certainly 5, possibly 6-car. After a quick run through in my head only Shipley P1, P2 and maybe P5 cause an issue.

I would imagine given the location of both, extensions might be possible (although I'm not sure what length the initial platforms will be). But as you say, Shipey is the problem. P4 should be easy enough to lengthen to allow longer Leeds-Bradford services, as well as accommodate the propsed increase of VTEC services from 2018. With P1 & P2 there is possibly a small amount of room to the east of each, but this would involve building over the station approach bridge. P5 however could be an issue. There's very llittle wriggle room so I doubt that would ever happen.

 

[30907]

I would imagine given the location of both, extensions might be possible (although I'm not sure what length the initial platforms will be). But as you say, Shipey is the problem. P4 should be easy enough to lengthen to allow longer Leeds-Bradford services, as well as accommodate the propsed increase of VTEC services from 2018. With P1 & P2 there is possibly a small amount of room to the east of each, but this would involve building over the station approach bridge. P5 however could be an issue. There's very llittle wriggle room so I doubt that would ever happen.

Shipley P1 could be extended at the Bingley Jn end , by encroaching onto Stead St. P2 as you say would have to go over the approach road bridge. P5 looks to be possible, again at the Bingley Jn end, as the signal overlaps for a 5 mph curve are minimal.

 

[bluenoxid]

P5 could be done by realigning the lines through P3 and P4 IIRC.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

P5 could be done by realigning the lines through P3 and P4 IIRC.

Are these just forum members aspirational thoughts or has any similar matter been subject to any official thoughts in past times?

 

[Bantamzen]

Are these just forum members aspirational thoughts or has any similar matter been subject to any official thoughts in past times?

Well when GNER services started running from Bradford FS platform 3 was extended so that both outward and return journeys use it instead of having to limit boarding to a handful of carriages. No plans where made for the similar Skipton services probably because of the limited amount of room and extra engineering required to build over the station approach for P1 & P2 (although P3 does slightly overhang the bridge across Bradford Beck). So when the additional VTEC Bradford services start to run around 2018, it would probably make sense to extend P4 to a similar length to P3 to prevent pathing issues through the station.

As for the rest, it's more aspirational than officially planned at this stage but is probably something that will require more consideration in the future as the Airedale line becomes ever more popular.