King's Cross to Southend Central

[YorkC]

Just trying to work out the best ticket for this (flexible day return on Saturday, network railcard). Trainsplit will offer me the following:





I'm not going to use a ticket that's invalid so can someone confirm that this isn't valid? Surely this can't be used from KGX on a London Terminals ticket.

 

[Haywain]

As is regularly advised in these forums, if you use a ticket in accordance with an itinerary issued as part of the booking there should be no questions about it's validity. The routeing does look a bit odd, but no doubt someone will be along in due course to explain what the routeing guide says about it.

 

[Wirewiper]

Unless I am missing something, the only condition is that you must travel via Barking - and if you use a c2c train between Stratford and Southend Central you will do that.

 

[YorkC]

I guess my concern with it is that I've never seen a valid routing from a London Terminal station begin with an underground journey and (again a well-worn topic here) the ticket doesn't print with a Maltese Cross, which I'd guess would lead to gateline problems.

 

[Haywain]

I guess my concern with it is that I've never seen a valid routing from a London Terminal station begin with an underground journey and (again a well-worn topic here) the ticket doesn't print with a Maltese Cross, which I'd guess would lead to gateline problems.

The validity of the ticket and the difficulties you might face using it are not one and the same. Rail tickets are generally interavailable on the underground between Kings Cross and Highbury, but then the same applies to Kings Cross and Moorgate and plenty of people have trouble with the latter.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Just trying to work out the best ticket for this (flexible day return on Saturday, network railcard). Trainsplit will offer me the following:

View attachment 62322

View attachment 62323

I'm not going to use a ticket that's invalid so can someone confirm that this isn't valid? Surely this can't be used from KGX on a London Terminals ticket.

There is never a question of whether a ticket is 'invalid' if it is offered by a journey planner in conjunction with a particular ticket. The fact that the two are offered together means that, if you buy the two together, you are contractually entitled to travel as per the itinerary, and are entitled to damages for any losses or costs you incur if you are, for example, denied entry with that ticket at King's Cross.

 

[YorkC]

Thanks for replies. Have now had a chance to check the routing for this in full and it does actually appear to be valid irrespective of questions regarding validity arising from being given an itinerary. Am I right in thinking there's no chance it'll work an LU barrier? The problem is that I'm getting the last train back to Leeds that night with potentially quite a tight connection & as much as it might be valid & I could claim back costs if inconvenienced, I'd rather not have that issue in the first place.

If it won't work the barrier, what ticket *should* I buy if I want to avoid problems with that? Is it just a Zone 1-6 - Southend Central ticket? Pretty annoying if so as it's priced at over twice as much.

 

[Silver Cobra]

If it won't work the barrier, what ticket *should* I buy if I want to avoid problems with that? Is it just a Zone 1-6 - Southend Central ticket? Pretty annoying if so as it's priced at over twice as much.

A Finsbury Park to Southend Stations off-peak day return (£14.80) should be valid.

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=FPK&dest=SOC&grpd=0411&rlc=NEW&ldn=1&tkt=CDR

**EDIT: As all c2c services to Southend Central are running from Liverpool Street this weekend, you can use this ticket to head straight to Liverpool Street on the underground rather than Stratford via Hackney Wick.

 

[YorkC]

Thanks - and this is a question I really should know the answer to already - but am I covered for a connecting transfer from SOC-KGX onto my train to Leeds on that ticket since I'm breaking my journey early?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Thanks - and this is a question I really should know the answer to already - but am I covered for a connecting transfer from SOC-KGX onto my train to Leeds on that ticket since I'm breaking my journey early?

Yes. As long as you are breaking your journey in a valid matter and respect the minimum connection times it doesn't matter what ticket(s) you use.

 

[YorkC]

Cheers!

 

[YorkC]

Actually - just realised I can go to/from St Pancras via HS1 & transfer from Stratford Intl to Stratford, so avoiding the underground altogether anyway.

 

[Haywain]

Actually - just realised I can go to/from St Pancras via HS1 & transfer from Stratford Intl to Stratford, so avoiding the underground altogether anyway.

To do that you will almost certainly need a different ticket - one that's valid on HS1 - and you'll need to transfer between the two stations at Stratford, either walking or by DLR, allowing probably 15 minutes or more. However, the easiest journey would surely be to use the underground from Kings Cross to Liverpool Street and c2c from there.

 

[YorkC]

Every booking engine I've tried is offering itineraries on this ticket (http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=1072&dest=SOC&rlc=NEW&tkt=CBA) if you put in London Terminals to Southend Central via Stratford Intl.

 

[MikeWh]

To do that you will almost certainly need a different ticket - one that's valid on HS1 - and you'll need to transfer between the two stations at Stratford, either walking or by DLR, allowing probably 15 minutes or more. However, the easiest journey would surely be to use the underground from Kings Cross to Liverpool Street and c2c from there.

Is the ticket valid on the Underground between Moorgate and Liverpool Street? It's valid using the interavailability in the Kings Cross - Moorgate - Finsbury Park triangle (with the usual bar on most intermediate stations), but to Liverpool Street?

 

[Haywain]

Is the ticket valid on the Underground between Moorgate and Liverpool Street? It's valid using the interavailability in the Kings Cross - Moorgate - Finsbury Park triangle (with the usual bar on most intermediate stations), but to Liverpool Street?

No, but as the OP is coming from Yorkshire to London they may have a ticket already that will cover travel from Kings Cross to Moorgate. Regardless of that, I wonder if it is worth making the journey more complex than necessary to save a couple of quid and risk missing the last train back to Leeds.

 

[YorkC]

AIUI a ticket is valid on HS1 if a mapped route unless the ticket has a not HS1 restriction - is that not right? There's no such restriction on this ticket and booking engines unproblematically offer itineraries.

 

[yorkie]

AIUI a ticket is valid on HS1 if a mapped route unless the ticket has a not HS1 restriction - is that not right? There's no such restriction on this ticket and booking engines unproblematically offer itineraries.

Yes. HS1 is no different to any other route from a routeing perspective.

The problem is that if 'interesting' routeings are found - even when perfectly valid - there is a risk that train companies may request negative easements be introduced to prevent them being offered in future.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Unless I am missing something, the only condition is that you must travel via Barking - and if you use a c2c train between Stratford and Southend Central you will do that.

It's marginally surprising that Kings Cross is a valid "London Terminal" for Southend Central. You might expect that it was only Fenchurch Street and Liverpool Street.

 

[Haywain]

AIUI a ticket is valid on HS1 if a mapped route unless the ticket has a not HS1 restriction - is that not right? There's no such restriction on this ticket and booking engines unproblematically offer itineraries.

It doesn't appear to be a mapped route - Barking to London Group is mapped on map TS which takes you into Liverpool Street or Fenchurch Street. There are no other mapped routes.

 

[Haywain]

It's marginally surprising that Kings Cross is a valid "London Terminal" for Southend Central. You might expect that it was only Fenchurch Street and Liverpool Street.

The RSP data for valid Terminals shows only the two that you expect.

 

[YorkC]

It doesn't appear to be a mapped route - Barking to London Group is mapped on map TS which takes you into Liverpool Street or Fenchurch Street. There are no other mapped routes.

Where do you get the specified stations from? Again this feels like something I've got wrong that I should know, but I thought it was determined by whether you could get to the first RP without passing another (the first RP to the right of London Group is Stratford London Group). Is there anything in the RG instructions that specifies checking which London Terminals are permitted and how to do this?



(edit - oops, I was replying to a previous post that I think you may have deleted/edited)

 

[yorkie]

It's marginally surprising that Kings Cross is a valid "London Terminal" for Southend Central. You might expect that it was only Fenchurch Street and Liverpool Street.

The route is a permitted route due to the shortest route rule; it's within 3 miles of the shortest route.

The RSP data for valid Terminals shows only the two that you expect.

That data source is just an interpretation of what's valid though, and not one that everyone will agree with.

There are numerous obvious errors (such as Richmond to Euston correctly being deemed valid, yet go one stop beyond Richmond and it's deemed invalid!) and there is no provision to restrict the permitted routes based on that (erroneous) data.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

The route is a permitted route due to the shortest route rule; it's within 3 miles of the shortest route.

Is that particular ticket also valid via Fenchurch Street (and Liverpool Street) in the absence of a Maltese Cross?

Kings Cross to Finsbury Park/ Highbury & Islington is one of the routes valid both by National Rail and TfL

 

[JB_B]

The RSP data for valid Terminals shows only the two that you expect.

The London Terminals Mapping feed plays no part in establishing the validity of a route.

(That's just as well as, historically, the feed has been full of errors.)

 

[Haywain]

The London Terminals Mapping feed plays no part in establishing the validity of a route.

I made no such claim.

 

[JB_B]

It doesn't appear to be a mapped route - Barking to London Group is mapped on map TS which takes you into Liverpool Street or Fenchurch Street. There are no other mapped routes.

Am I right in thinking that the OP can take mapped routes for the whole journey from London Group to Southend Central as long as they go via Barking (that's on top of any routes generated on the split routeing to and from Barking) ?

For the whole journey the destination routeing point would be Pitsea and maps CO+TS and TS.

 

[JB_B]

I made no such claim.

Oh, OK - sorry. By referring to the London Terminals data it read as though you thought it was relevant.

 

[Silver Cobra]

With regards to my previous suggested ticket, I've found a cheaper option involving splitting at Pitsea:

Finsbury Park to Pitsea off-peak day return (£9.90)
Pitsea to Southend Central super off-peak day return (£3.30)

The total cost of this is £13.20, so £1.60 cheaper than my previous suggestion.