Kings Cross - security with tape closing platform

[Horizon22]

Clearly I haven't...

Last Friday, a whole 6 minutes.
And that SMS landed about 30s before the public announcement

Not surprising, because the text will be based on publicly available data.

 

[sprunt]

That was due to a set swap because of disruption. 9G28 should have been formed from 1A39 but as this didn't arrive until 1500, stock from 9M52 was used as that arrived before. You can't expect plaforms to be advertised before a train is there as that would cause chaos with passengers disembarking/embarking at the same time

There's no reason why it should cause chaos. Non-terminal stations, even busy ones like Clapham Junction seem to cope with it. Euston has wide platforms, a 6 minute turnaround is a good reason why the platform should have been announced before the train arrived.

 

[Sakuradori]

There's no reason why it should cause chaos. Non-terminal stations, even busy ones like Clapham Junction seem to cope with it. Euston has wide platforms, a 6 minute turnaround is a good reason why the platform should have been announced before the train arrived.

I think the difference between doing that at Clapham vs Euston is that at Clapham you won't have cleaners, fitters and restockers trying to work around the mess of people on/off, all of whom probably appreciate the quiet moment between disembarking and loading. Edwin_m suggested a good way of sidestepping this, but since that doesn't happen...

Anyway, LNER is trialling pre-boarding trains starting December, so we'll see how that works out then.

 

[800001]

I think the difference between doing that at Clapham vs Euston is that at Clapham you won't have cleaners, fitters and restockers trying to work around the mess of people on/off, all of whom probably appreciate the quiet moment between disembarking and loading. Edwin_m suggested a good way of sidestepping this, but since that doesn't happen...

Anyway, LNER is trialling pre-boarding trains starting December, so we'll see how that works out then.

What is this LNER pre-boarding all about?

 

[Sakuradori]

What is this LNER pre-boarding all about?

They'd trialled it a little while back with the 12:00 Aberdeen with the intention of making it more common with the Dec 14th ECML timetable, it's announcing the platform and boarding before the train has even arrived in the station, so the passengers meet it on the platform. I think it's almost a necessity with some of the turnaround times they're timetabling, but I really don't know how they're gonna make it work practically.

 

[800001]

They'd trialled it a little while back with the 12:00 Aberdeen with the intention of making it more common with the Dec 14th ECML timetable, it's announcing the platform and boarding before the train has even arrived in the station, so the passengers meet it on the platform. I think it's almost a necessity with some of the turnaround times they're timetabling, but I really don't know how they're gonna make it work practically.

I can see the carnage in the platform when a full 9 car empties out on to a crowded platform, and with all the catering equipment waiting to be loaded etc

 

[Sakuradori]

I can see the carnage in the platform when a full 9 car empties out on to a crowded platform, and with all the catering equipment waiting to be loaded etc

I can see it working quite well with empty sets from the depot, at least, but we'll have to see how it goes if they do it to full passenger trains, especially since this timetable comes in right in the middle of the busy Christmas period.

 

[jon0844]

They'd trialled it a little while back with the 12:00 Aberdeen with the intention of making it more common with the Dec 14th ECML timetable, it's announcing the platform and boarding before the train has even arrived in the station, so the passengers meet it on the platform. I think it's almost a necessity with some of the turnaround times they're timetabling, but I really don't know how they're gonna make it work practically.

I can't help but feel that a lot of people with luggage are going to enter the platform and then stand close to the train to try and board first, and that is going to hinder people alighting. OR you might get people spread out a bit more, not knowing exactly where the doors will be (assuming they don't see from a train on an adjacent platform) and by being spread out, will also cause issues with people exiting.

I suppose you could paint lines on the platform to create lanes or 'do not obstruct' zones, but I think this could be a nightmare at certain times of the day. A train in the middle of the day may well be a lot less difficult to manage than trains at busier periods, so I wonder if the trial gave a true picture of how things might turn out?

I guess we'll find out!

 

[wimbledonpete]

I can see the carnage in the platform when a full 9 car empties out on to a crowded platform, and with all the catering equipment waiting to be loaded etc

No catering stuff but this happens all the time at St Pancras Southeastern platforms - full 12 coach trains come in and empty out while departing passengers wait on the platform. People stand clear of the doors, all works fine, generally get staff walking through before departure picking up rubbish.

 

[johnnym24]

Most countries do without this nonsense; dispatch starts at the advertised departure minute - not at some random, varying amount of time beforehand.

But if we must follow the folly of the French and Spanish, the 'doors close' time needs to be pointed out at the point of purchase and subsequently be printed on the ticket.

Strongly agree - I as a passenger am only interested in the last time I can board - don't want to have to know whether I need to subtract 30 seconds, 90 seconds, 2 minutes etc from the departure time.

 

[DelW]

No catering stuff but this happens all the time at St Pancras Southeastern platforms - full 12 coach trains come in and empty out while departing passengers wait on the platform. People stand clear of the doors, all works fine, generally get staff walking through before departure picking up rubbish.

I've seen the same at Waterloo too, especially if the incoming train is late and needs a quick turn-round. Platform is announced in advance of arrival, passengers spread out along the platform, train arrives, passengers disembark, new passengers board, train leaves about five minutes later. Admittedly no catering trolleys or reserved seats, but I don't think they would have too much effect.

It's really little different from say XC trains at New Street, where a high proportion of passengers are leaving or boarding the train.

 

[Dr Hoo]

It's really little different from say XC trains at New Street, where a high proportion of passengers are leaving or boarding the train.

And everyone recognises that Birmingham New Street is the model to emulate at stations such as London King’s Cross?

 

[OscarH]

I suppose you could paint lines on the platform to create lanes or 'do not obstruct' zones

Hopefully those on long distance trains are more civilised than the disrespectful rush hour commuters at Farringdon

 

[PeterC]

No catering stuff but this happens all the time at St Pancras Southeastern platforms - full 12 coach trains come in and empty out while departing passengers wait on the platform. People stand clear of the doors, all works fine, generally get staff walking through before departure picking up rubbish.

For what is essentially a commuter service thus is fine. For a long distance service where a significant number of passengers have luggage plus the need to restock catering I dn understand a different approach.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hopefully those on long distance trains are more civilised than the disrespectful rush hour commuters at Farringdon

With the majority of LNER passengers having reserved seats there shouldn't be too much barging needed. The level of barging tends to be inversely proportional to the chance of a seat. The absolute worst I've known it was TPE in the days when everything was 3 car.

I've experienced boarding a Eurostar at Brussels which had come from Amsterdam, we were sent up before it entered the platform but there was no barging because it is fully reserved, so what would be the point?

 

[edwin_m]

For what is essentially a commuter service thus is fine. For a long distance service where a significant number of passengers have luggage plus the need to restock catering I dn understand a different approach.

This is probably true if the timetable allows enough turnaround for the train to be prepared and for people to board comfortably. Closing the barriers early actually reduces this period, though a safety benefit will be claimed by avoiding accidents to people running for their trains.

If turnaround is short, either as scheduled or due to a late arrival, then I think most passengers would prefer the combination of a relatively comfortable boarding and every effort being made to depart on time. This is probably achieved by minimising train servicing at the terminus and allowing departing passengers onto the platform before the train arrives. Perhaps catering provisions could be pre-positioned before it arrives and that part of the platform cordoned off so they can be loaded without interruptions. Particularly for an unscheduled short turnaround people would tolerate a the train interior not being quite pristine, if this avoids a mad rush to join and/or departing late and probably losing more time on the way due to having missed the planned path.

 

[DelW]

And everyone recognises that Birmingham New Street is the model to emulate at stations such as London King’s Cross?

Well, certainly not architecturally or atmospherically!

But considering how cramped and dingy the platforms at New Street are, passengers generally seem to get themselves on and off without undue difficulty or delay. It would be impractical to keep passengers behind barriers until their train had arrived.

 

[edwin_m]

But considering how cramped and dingy the platforms at New Street are, passengers generally seem to get themselves on and off without undue difficulty or delay. It would be impractical to keep passengers behind barriers until their train had arrived.

The Cardiff to Nottingham services usually leave from the narrow part of platform 9a, often full and standing out to Tamworth or Burton. This only just works, and only because departing passengers are already distributed along the platform. There's a wider area in the middle of the platform where possibly departing passengers could be corralled until those alighting have cleared, but doing so would add a Euston-style stampede for no good reason and extend the dwell time by several minutes.

 

[andyjhatton]

And everyone recognises that Birmingham New Street is the model to emulate at stations such as London King’s Cross?

You could certainly dissuade passengers from loitering on the platforms for too long by drowning them in carcongenic diesel exhaust.
Tear down them wires.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I travelled from Chesterfield to Birmingham on an 8-car AXC formation last week. No disruption or anything special but it seemed to me that it was a complete rammy with passengers trying to join before alighting had completed; arriving passengers having difficulty moving along the platform to the ‘B’ end; difficulty getting a ramp deployed; and catering stores to top up.

All quite typical in the circumstances and probably unavoidable at a through station, but nothing to try and copy at King’s Cross if there is an alternative. Let alone with Passenger Assistance buggies trying to manoeuvre as well. (IMHO.)

 

[duffield]

Well, certainly not architecturally or atmospherically!

But considering how cramped and dingy the platforms at New Street are, passengers generally seem to get themselves on and off without undue difficulty or delay. It would be impractical to keep passengers behind barriers until their train had arrived.

Yes, it feels cramped, unpleasant and a bit dangerous at times but somehow it just about works with the trains getting away mostly on time and no fights breaking out. But it is a bit alarming seeing people teetering on the edge of the platform as they attempt to pass along a narrow crowded section. I guess the approaching trains are going so slowly such people would probably not get run over if they fell in front of it.

Given the relative roominess of the Kings Cross platforms mixing boarding and disembarking passengers should work OK.

 

[g492p]

Sorry I know it's off topic, but I believe pre boarding at Kings Cross will reduce the amount the train is cleaned. Trains are regularly hoovered and tables and seats wiped down at the moment. I understand all that will happen now is a very quick litter pick. Not sure how passengers will feel, considering how messy a full 9 car from Scotland can get.

Back on topic, the corden is only pulled when dispatch begins. You are not stopped from getting on the train if it's at a red signal.

 

[Hadders]

They'd trialled it a little while back with the 12:00 Aberdeen with the intention of making it more common with the Dec 14th ECML timetable, it's announcing the platform and boarding before the train has even arrived in the station, so the passengers meet it on the platform. I think it's almost a necessity with some of the turnaround times they're timetabling, but I really don't know how they're gonna make it work practically.

This is the sort of thing that many of us have said should happen at Euston to prevent the stampede. I.E. get people on the platform once you know which one it's leaving from.

They will need to be slick around train cleaning and reloading but if the timetable is tight this is the case regardless.

 

[jon0844]

I see more train (and plane) services where cleaning is done/attempted before reaching the destination. It can mean that a lot of mess simply cannot be cleaned, and the train may end up dirtier than it would with a proper walk through on an empty service.

I get how this will reduce conflict with passengers alighting and a new lot boarding, but it could then lead to more complaints. The railway doesn't need much to go wrong for people to complain and attack the entire industry, and posting photos of a dirty train to Edinburgh that someone has paid £xx for will play right into the hands of the Daily Wail brigade.

I'd say it's also easier to identify lost property/left behind bags if you go through the train after everyone has alighted and before new people have boarded. It's going to be near impossible to do this otherwise. Now a bag could go back and forth until it is terminated at the end of the day.

 

[edwin_m]

I see more train (and plane) services where cleaning is done/attempted before reaching the destination. It can mean that a lot of mess simply cannot be cleaned, and the train may end up dirtier than it would with a proper walk through on an empty service.

I get how this will reduce conflict with passengers alighting and a new lot boarding, but it could then lead to more complaints. The railway doesn't need much to go wrong for people to complain and attack the entire industry, and posting photos of a dirty train to Edinburgh that someone has paid £xx for will play right into the hands of the Daily Wail brigade.

I'd say it's also easier to identify lost property/left behind bags if you go through the train after everyone has alighted and before new people have boarded. It's going to be near impossible to do this otherwise. Now a bag could go back and forth until it is terminated at the end of the day.

That's related to the turnaround time, not so much to the method of boarding. If there is plenty of time then people can be let onto the platform in good time when the train is ready to board. If the time is short then I'd say it's better to let people onto the platform after arriving passengers have cleared, but keep the train doors locked until the train is ready. If time is very short (unplanned due to late arrival, set swap etc) then skip the train preparation, explain to passengers that timely departure has been prioritised and do a litter pick before arrival and/or after departure.

None of these involves holding passengers at the barrier until shortly before departure and precipitating a mad dash, which will have the same sort of potential safety hazard that they are trying to address by closing the barriers early.

 

[jon0844]

That's related to the turnaround time, not so much to the method of boarding. If there is plenty of time then people can be let onto the platform in good time when the train is ready to board. If the time is short then I'd say it's better to let people onto the platform after arriving passengers have cleared, but keep the train doors locked until the train is ready. If time is very short (unplanned due to late arrival, set swap etc) then skip the train preparation, explain to passengers that timely departure has been prioritised and do a litter pick before arrival and/or after departure.

None of these involves holding passengers at the barrier until shortly before departure and precipitating a mad dash, which will have the same sort of potential safety hazard that they are trying to address by closing the barriers early.

King's Cross doesn't usually have the same mad dash issues - presumably because there are longer turnaround times. If the new timetable is going to reduce turnaround times then there are bound to be issues in the future.

Asking people not to board a train because it's going to be shut down to allow full cleaning and re-stocking (perhaps also re-tanking the toilets) can be tricky as some people won't listen and if there aren't a lot of staff and it's a tight turnaround as it is, who demands people get off? What happens when they say they aren't going to get off because they're not doing any harm and staff are just being obtuse?

If you could get people to wait away from the train to allow people off and then wait until permission to board is given, along with clear signs of where each coach is so people can get to the right part of the platform, then happy days. That's your ideal world, and what I'd expect would happen if you were in Japan and asked people to do this. But this isn't Japan!

 

[Hectorin]

I've experienced the taping off of platforms at Liverpool Lime Street earlier this year as well, infuriatingly for the last train of the day back towards Manchester. The train wasn't moving, dispatcher was seemingly standing next to the train looking towards the entrance of the platform, but security guy (working for whoever runs LLS station I suppose) just shrugged and had decided that was that, leaving me and a few others to find other ways back home. Another win for the railway, at least they got a check in the on-time departure box.

 

[edwin_m]

King's Cross doesn't usually have the same mad dash issues - presumably because there are longer turnaround times. If the new timetable is going to reduce turnaround times then there are bound to be issues in the future.

Asking people not to board a train because it's going to be shut down to allow full cleaning and re-stocking (perhaps also re-tanking the toilets) can be tricky as some people won't listen and if there aren't a lot of staff and it's a tight turnaround as it is, who demands people get off? What happens when they say they aren't going to get off because they're not doing any harm and staff are just being obtuse?

If you could get people to wait away from the train to allow people off and then wait until permission to board is given, along with clear signs of where each coach is so people can get to the right part of the platform, then happy days. That's your ideal world, and what I'd expect would happen if you were in Japan and asked people to do this. But this isn't Japan!

A train that needs a full restocking needs enough time to do this and then for an orderly boarding. If the train servicing won't leave enough time for an orderly boarding process, then get the train servicing people on board, close the doors and only then announce the platform and open the barrier. so departing passengers can find their coaches and wait at the doors. Waiting on the platform isn't ideal but it's better than waiting at the barrier then having to rush.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've experienced the taping off of platforms at Liverpool Lime Street earlier this year as well, infuriatingly for the last train of the day back towards Manchester. The train wasn't moving, dispatcher was seemingly standing next to the train looking towards the entrance of the platform, but security guy (working for whoever runs LLS station I suppose) just shrugged and had decided that was that, leaving me and a few others to find other ways back home. Another win for the railway, at least they got a check in the on-time departure box.

At Euston they tend not to rush to get the last trains off just in case. But I can see sense in this (not seen it at Lime St otherwise) because of the risk of drunks falling under the train. Though if the train was dispatched early I would make a formal complaint.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I've experienced the taping off of platforms at Liverpool Lime Street earlier this year as well, infuriatingly for the last train of the day back towards Manchester. The train wasn't moving, dispatcher was seemingly standing next to the train looking towards the entrance of the platform, but security guy (working for whoever runs LLS station I suppose) just shrugged and had decided that was that, leaving me and a few others to find other ways back home. Another win for the railway, at least they got a check in the on-time departure box.

Surely at any terminal station with platform entry control it is good practice for the despatch team on platform and/or train to look back and confirm that the platform is closed to late runners before concentrating on making sure that those already on the platform have safely boarded and then initiating door closing.

The last thing you need is the fittest member of a group of staggering inebriates to make a late dash and hold a door open for their ‘mates’.


Meanwhile, back at King’s Cross, prompt departures are vital for timely presentation for the Welwyn bottleneck. Failure to achieve this can knock on for ages as a recent thread about poor Great Northern service recovery attests.

We are well acquainted with the RailUK Forums ‘Reference Passenger’ who invariably has mobility problems and heavy luggage whilst always having a reservation in the leading vehicle. These people have as much right to travel as anyone else with a valid ticket but do help to explain why the processes of platform closure and train despatch can sometimes appear protracted.

I can remember being denied entry to the platform at King’s Cross while the doors were still open back in BR Intercity days, so this is not a new thing.