King's Cross or Kings Cross?

[USRailFan]

I've seen the ECML Terminus written both ways, Wikipedia says Kings Cross, lots of other sources say King's Cross - what is actually correct?

 

[davetheguard]

It's possessive: the "Cross of the King" -a monument after which the station was named- so strictly speaking the apostrophe is correct.

 

[snowball]

If you're talking about the district in Halifax, it's King Cross.

 

[30907]

It's possessive: the "Cross of the King" -a monument after which the station was named- so strictly speaking the apostrophe is correct.

A quick search finds the apostrophe still used in printed sources at least to 2005 (GNER) but NRE and related sources have dropped it.

 

[SargeNpton]

British Rail policy was that possessive apostrophes were ignored in station names. With the splintering of responsibilities upon privatisation it was down to the policy of the individual companies as to how it was shown in publicity.

Conversely, London Transport did use possessive apostrophes, so you have the situation where the National Rail station is London Kings Cross, but the Underground station is King's Cross St Pancras.

 

[AlterEgo]

It's possessive: the "Cross of the King" -a monument after which the station was named- so strictly speaking the apostrophe is correct.

There's no "strictly speaking" when it comes to place names, which in England are often the subject of evolution and based on "whoever draws the map and writes the signs".

London isn't "strictly speaking" Londinium or Lowonidonjon, it's London.

 

[davetheguard]

There's no "strictly speaking" when it comes to place names, which in England are often the subject of evolution and based on "whoever draws the map and writes the signs".

London isn't "strictly speaking" Londinium or Lowonidonjon, it's London.

The person who "draws the map and writes the signs" can indeed write and spell however they like; it doesn't make it grammatically correct though!

However, I agree place names -and language generally- evolve, and that's a sign of a healthy living language.

Anyway, -shades of Thomas the Tank- there's surely only one proper name for the station in London, and it's Paddington! I'll get my coat....

 

[Dstock7080]

Conversely, London Transport did use possessive apostrophes, so you have the situation where the National Rail station is London Kings Cross, but the Underground station is King's Cross St Pancras.

From the December 2020 Tube map, the station is: “King’s Cross & St. Pancras International”

 

[Western Sunset]

Doing a bit of delving, not using Wiki, indicates that a statue was built at a nearby road junction in honor of the late King George IV. Much derided, it was erected in 1836 and demolished six years later. But the name stuck - hence King's Cross, as it refers to the one king. There is a suggestion, though, that the cross might refer to other kings too, but the general feeling is that it's King's with the apostrophe; just referring to KG IV. Bradshaw's timetables, of the late 19th century, referred to it as King's Cross too.

Of course, a railway can call its station anything it wants; the apostrophe (or lack of) indicates more the taste of styling or design of a period, hence whether it's used or not.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Another, but where the apostrophe has been dropped: Shepherds Well on the Southeastern line to Dover. Without delving into the attic to find old timetables, the station name has never carried an apostrophe in my lifetime, i.e. Shepherd's Well.

But then the village of Shepherdswell (no space) is at least a mile away from the station

 

[jfollows]

RTT made me enter "London Kings Cross" earlier today (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:KGX?stp=WVS&show=all&order=actual) , but I would myself use the apostrophe.

 

[samulih]

Nice little article about the issue https://londonist.com/2011/10/should-kings-cross-have-an-apostrophe

 

[cuccir]

A friend recently moved to St Albans and it's only due to this that I realized I'd been incorrect in always thinking of it as "St Alban's". The latter would surely be the gramatically 'correct' way to refer to a town belonging to/named for St Alban, but it's clearly not the correct name of the place! King(')s Cross may well be on a similar journey to that place-name.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There's a Kings Cross district and station in Sydney without an apostrophe.
(There's also a Paddington district nearby - without a railway station).

King's Lynn is another place with an apparently optional apostrophe.
King's Norton (Birmingham) is another, also its oppo King's Sutton near Banbury.
Then there's all the Queen's, Bishop's and Prince's etc etc.

Queensferry in North Wales used to be Kingsferry but was renamed for Queen Victoria.

 

[vic-rijrode]

But then the village of Shepherdswell (no space) is at least a mile away from the station

... and is also known as Sibertswold (or Sibert's Wold?).

 

[The Quincunx]

I believe that the Station Access Agreement, which incorporates the ststion lease, does not have an apostrophe (but it's a devil to find it in the ORR Public Register).

 

[py_megapixel]

As far as I'm concerned it doesn't really matter.

 

[farwest]

Wasn't there something similar with Land's end recently? I think there has to be an apostrophe.

 

[samulih]

There's a Kings Cross district and station in Sydney without an apostrophe.
(There's also a Paddington district nearby - without a railway station).

King's Lynn is another place with an apparently optional apostrophe.
King's Norton (Birmingham) is another, also its oppo King's Sutton near Banbury.
Then there's all the Queen's, Bishop's and Prince's etc etc.

Queensferry in North Wales used to be Kingsferry but was renamed for Queen Victoria.

Sydney´s KC was known as Queen's Cross and then changed but apostrophe dropped.... mindblown

 

[xotGD]

Whether it is one king or more than one king, there should still be an apostrophe; it is just a question of where it goes.

One king: King's Cross

Multiple kings: Kings' Cross

No apostrophe is grammatically incorrect.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Apostrophes are in danger, not just because of Wikipedia articles being wrong on names all the time, but also because the internet doesn't work with them.
Boot's Pharmacy and Waterstone's Books have both dropped it due the web addresses lacking apostropies.
Hyphens have disappeared on many words, often you see "cooperate" instead of co-operate.
Every one of us is writing more than ever before, and that's causing a shift to lazy standards to save a tiny amount of time.

Places like Saint Albans can be forgiven for lacking an apostrophe, as they weren't around back when it was named.

 

[Gloster]

Another one is Exeter St Davids or David’s (or even Davids’). There doesn’t seem to be a problem with Exeter St Thomas.

 

[Western Sunset]

Then of course, when we shorten words... Omnibus. Should we write it as 'bus? Same for pram, plane, phone etc.

 

[AlterEgo]

A friend recently moved to St Albans and it's only due to this that I realized I'd been incorrect in always thinking of it as "St Alban's". The latter would surely be the gramatically 'correct' way to refer to a town belonging to/named for St Alban, but it's clearly not the correct name of the place! King(')s Cross may well be on a similar journey to that place-name.

Apostrophes have often been dropped from place names. Acocks Green was named after a green area belonging to the Acock family but there's no record of it ever having had an apostrophe.

 

[YorksLad12]

Someone one explained the grammar behind this to me, years ago. I have, of course, forgotten the reason, but…

If a man called Beckett owns a park, it’s Beckett’s Park
If, years later, someone builds an educational institution there then it’s Beckett Park Campus - no possessive.

So Kings Cross Station doesn’t have a possessive, as the station doesn’t belong to a “king”. It’s named after a person/thing, not actually theirs.

 

[najaB]

No apostrophe is grammatically incorrect.

Only if we assume that the name is a possessive referring to ownership of a cross. What if there was more than one king crossing the road here?

 

[Western Sunset]

Though the cross had long gone by the time the GN set up shop. Hence King's Cross is named after the area, rather than said cross.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Dec 2021 ==

If they named it London Battlebridge, it'd save a lot of bother...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Dec 2021 ==

London Boudica has a nice ring to it - though doubtless there would be arguments if it should be spelt Boudicca. then there's the pronunciation...

 

[MontyP]

Shepherds Bush?
Shepherd's Bush?
Or Shepherds' Bush?

 

[davetheguard]

Despite the dropping of apostrophes from some place names, it often feels that you see more written apostrophes than ever.

They seem to appear regularly on signs outside shops or on menus like: bread & cake's; sandwiche's; pizza's; and fish & chip's. All incorrect, as they're all just plurals, and don't need an apostrophe at all.

Does it matter? Does spelling matter? Some will say it does and some will say it doesn't.

 

[Western Sunset]

When I was teaching in primary schools, some children put apostrophes everywhere...

We went to the shop's and got lots of sweet's.