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Kings Cross - New station

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stut

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Well, that was godawful.

Took an extra 10-15 minutes to get in, lock bike, then get out again, and manage to miss two trains in the process. Will be home nearly an hour late.

Barrier staff milling about but nowhere near the barriers. As a season won't work for quick entry/exit, you need them. Had to run from 0-8 and halfway back again to find someone to let me back out (having been turned away).

Whoever designed this idiotic system needs a good kicking. Oh no, wait, I only have two years to wait until it changes slightly.
 
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Barclay

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I am a member of the King's Cross design team and have been for around four years. I resent the suggestion that I deserve a kicking, as advocated by the above poster.

I personally, as a cyclist, lobbied hard to keep the cycle racks inside the trainsheds in the interests of security for bike users. Many others wanted them relocated outside. The vast majority of passengers are taking pleasure in using their transformed world-class new station. If you want to park your bike in the trainsheds, for free, protected by CCTV, and now with gatelines to assist in preventing casual thefts, then turn up a few minutes earlier for your train.
 

stut

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I'm sure it's much loved by people arriving by tube on long journeys. For the rest of us, it's a stunning waste of money, something pointless and shiny that doesn't work properly, whose novelty will quickly wear thin.

If anyone from the design team would like to write to my boss and explain why I have to leave 15 minutes early so as to ensure optimum passenger flow, please do feel free.

Once again (it seems standard for the railways these days), we have sonething shiny that provides marginal benefit to the majority, and a huge disadvantage to a large minority.

However, I'm seeing more and more gates turned against the flow, so it does look like someone is seeing sense. Hopefully there'll be a sensible compromise in the next couple of weeks.

Sorry for wanting something efficient for my £3500 a year.
 

DaveNewcastle

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I am a member of the King's Cross design team . . . .

I personally, as a cyclist, lobbied hard to keep the cycle racks inside the trainsheds . . . .
If you want to park your bike in the trainsheds, . . . . then turn up a few minutes earlier for your train.
I wonder if you noticed my earlier post here?
The strongest of my evidentially based arguments for a train-side public-facing summary display of departures was from a bike user's point of view.

I'm sorry to have to tell you that by turning up a few minutes earlier doesn't solve the problem. I'm also sorry to say that declaring that "I resent the suggestion" does not tend to solve problems. I wonder if we could perhaps be a little more constructive and analyse real-world situations with a view to increasing effective design, please?

Imagine (which as a cycle user in KGX you will find easy to do accurately), that your bike is in the racks on, say, plat 8, as in my picture in post #246 of this thread, and you are intending to travel north on any of the long distance TOCs.

You could wait on the concourse for the platform to be announced and displayed. On a good day, that will give you 15 or more minutes to pass through the barriers with the other 300 or more passengers, walk 2/3rds way up plat 8 to your bike, disentangle it from its neighbours and unlock it, walk back down the platform to the buffer stops (one of these journeys possibly being against a flow of passengers & luggage and/or RG trolleys), then along the buffer stops to your allocated platform, load your bike promptly (if its an EC 225) or walk the length of the train if its an HST, then hopefully, walk to your seat.

Its all do-able. Just.

But in times of disruption, train turnaround can be under 10 minutes, and passenger announcements and displays will provide much less notice. Also, in times of disruption, the density of passengers moving onto platforms is much higher, more determined and likey to create static clusters at barriers and platform ends. Add to this the probability of an HST being allocated, involving the full "U" shaped walk to the racks, back to the buffer-stops, up to the 'van' and back to the seat. It cannot be done - I've tried and failed!

A solution for cycle users would be to enter the train-side of the barriers and reclaim the bike before the platform is announced, at say 20 - 15 mins before departure. Then whatever platform is announced, and whatever train type is allocated, there will be ample time to load the bike and find a seat with little stress or running. But the layout, as designed, doesn't permit this, does it?

No one (bike user or not) once train-side, can determine what platform their service will depart from. Unless you imagine that someone walks back and forward across the station, right across the flow of passengers, and patrols all 9 individual platform displays, back and forwards, waiting to see if the service they want has yet been displayed.

No. I don't have any reason to think that you or any of your colleagues deserve a kicking. Yet. But I do have reason to find fault and would expect any responsible officer of the design team to accept critisism graciously and professionally. I don't expect anyone of the design team to respond with resentment and self-justification.

I'm sure you have lobbied hard for something beneficial. I also suspect that it was within your professional remit to have been considering the needs of passengers and it beggars belief that you expect appreciation on here for having done exactly what any passenger would expect from a designer - considering the needs of the user. Anyway, that work may be reflected positively in your career development, without any consideration from actual passengers, and designers will award each other without any help from this forum or elsewhere.
But please remember that it is the mark of a professional to face critisism head on and to admit to omissions and to deal with them. And to deal with actual passengers. Passengers who may not appreciate or care for all the hoops you go through to change a station from one layout to another and perhaps don't care a jot about it other than its functionality. That is your burden! Not the passengers'.

So can we move on, please?

What adjustments and improvements will be made at Kings Cross in response to the experience gained in the last week? Will any changes be given the NR & EC spin of having listened to customers and stiving to give them what that want?
Or,
Will changes be described as mistakes, oversights and failures to model actual station useage?

I'd give an award to any design team who fixed errors and admitted to them.
I'd give a kicking to any design team who closed ranks and blamed the customer for not making more time to use their new facilities, requested or not.
Which do you want?
 
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Barclay

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I don't resent constructive criticism, i welcome it. I resent the suggestion that my colleagues and I 'deserve a kicking'.

Happy to meet you and discuss the problems with bike storage, I'm just not convinced advocating violence is a particularly appropriate way forward. Would you suggest the same for a member of train staff who caused you inconvenience? Do send me a personal message if you would like to meet face to face.
 

stut

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I suggest you stop taking things quite so literally, and perhaps appreciate that someone who, despite turning up 10 minutes before his train is going to leave (and having little control over when he can leave work), finds he's going to be an hour late home, might be a little annoyed at the fact.
 

yorkie

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...I'm just not convinced advocating violence is a particularly appropriate way forward..
If you really feel that a comment was meant to promote violence then you need to use the report button (
report.gif
) to inform forum staff. I think you can safely say it wasn't, and the fact no-one has reported it suggests that no-one really thinks that it was.
 

Blindtraveler

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well swurving onto another course for a mo Iv gone through every comment on this thread and am now very interested to see how well the new KGX works from a disabled pax POV. It cant be any worse than before and may well be better. Best of all im using it next Wednesday!
 

DaveNewcastle

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Happy to meet you and discuss the problems with bike storage, . . . . .

Do send me a personal message if you would like to meet face to face.
Thank you, I will be very pleased to do that. I believe that my next London appointments are in the second & third weeks of April and will advise by PM when I have access to my diary.
 

swt_passenger

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I am a member of the King's Cross design team and have been for around four years...

You might be able to answer a couple of questions?

I downloaded a copy of Arup's 2006 'Station Design and Passenger Movements' report from Camden's planning website a while ago, and it shows a few differences to what has been built.

The report discusses a secondary 'two way' gateline at the north end of the concourse giving access to platform 8, roughly below the mezzanine footbridge's opening through the western range, but this seems to have been removed from the final design:

To further relieve passenger pressure at the southern accumulation area and gate line an additional access/egress for Platform 8 is provided. It is expected that this platform will be utilised for commuter services and hence it is expected that the favoured location for the majority of the passengers will be the northern accumulation area where direct access to the platform can be achieved. This Platform 8 gated link will therefore add further relief to the southern accumulation area.

and:

On platform 8 the northern gate allows passengers from the main section of the train to exit early hence improving LUL connections via the northern ticket hall and the Kings Cross development areas to the north.

Was this secondary gateline formally removed from the project?

The report includes a number of flow diagrams highlighting the use of the main gatelines and clearly shows that the western range gateline was intended to be two way, albeit with a majority of the gates set for entry to P0-P8, and there is also evidence on the drawings (when magnified) that entry was to be available at the furthest east end of the main southern exit gateline, ie at the York Way side.

If that was what was designed and applied for, why have those passenger flows apparently not been provided for at opening?

Another area of criticism here (and elsewhere) appears to be that there is no 'paid side' access between P8 and P9. Experience suggests that short notice changes of platform are not unusual, but there are also passengers changing between mainline and suburban trains. If the link passage betweeen P8 and P9 was opened up, as clearly shown in most of the planning drawings, this would allow interchanging behind the ticket barriers. Will this be eventually provided?

Thanks in anticipation...
 

Failed Unit

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Another area of criticism here (and elsewhere) appears to be that there is no 'paid side' access between P8 and P9. Experience suggests that short notice changes of platform are not unusual, but there are also passengers changing between mainline and suburban trains. If the link passage betweeen P8 and P9 was opened up, as clearly shown in most of the planning drawings, this would allow interchanging behind the ticket barriers. Will this be eventually provided?

Thanks in anticipation...

That is something I don't like the sound of, but haven't had the pleasure of seeing it myself yet. But I frequently change from mainline to FCC and it does sound a bit annoying to have leave the station and re-enter to make this change.

In fact as you state you could arrive on the mainline train on say platform 1, leave the station and need to rejoin on platform 2 as I understand that information provided past the barrier line isn't the best and as you state they often don't announce the platform until late.
 

swt_passenger

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Apart from anything else, we know that gatelines aren't usually happy with exit and entry shortly afterwards, that's if they are even programmed to let you out anyway, if interchanging.

Far easier to provide the departure platform listing display and an interchange route to avoid you needing to exit through the gates in the first place.
 

Failed Unit

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Apart from anything else, we know that gatelines aren't usually happy with exit and entry shortly afterwards, that's if they are even programmed to let you out anyway, if interchanging.

Far easier to provide the departure platform listing display and an interchange route to avoid you needing to exit through the gates in the first place.

But then you won't be tempted to buy something on the way. :lol:
 

HSTEd

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I see one of the LED displays in the array at the southern end of the concourse is already malfunctioning.
 

Barclay

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Hi

There have been a lot of changes to the original 2007 consent, and the removal of the concourse level Northern gateline at is one. All the amendments have also been through the planning process. Search for King’s Cross Station applications on the Camden planning website and you’ll see hundreds of applications!

The Northern gateline would have been advantageous to people stepping from the train at the Country end of P8 and transferring the suburban trainshed, and vice-versa. It would of course also have been useful for cyclists if the bike racks remain on p8, but their final position is not yet decided. The racks may not end up remaining in the trainshed - many want them outside, à la Waterloo and Euston. However, this will probably not happen until further outside space is created.

I believe there is also a separate proposal for commercial bike storage in the undercroft of one of the buildings on the Argent site behind the German gym.

In a world where the railway has to try and make as much money from its assets as possible, the potential passenger flows through the Northern gateline were not considered sufficient to warrant its cost. It will therefore become a retail space, and generate some valuable income for the railway. In a more ideal world however, it should have been kept as a gateline at least temporarily until the position of the bike park had been sorted out.

With regards to the complaint about the lack of CIS screens in the main train shed, there were supposed to be summary of departure screens facing into the trainsheds at the Southern gatelines. I don’t know why they haven’t been installed yet and will ask, and will also see if we can get a summary of departures screen installed at or near the p8 bike racks.

Now can we be friends?
 

Failed Unit

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Technically, there is, though it is very inconvenient.
It involves a walk all the way to the country end of the platforms.

Pray the train arrives on platform 8, but I suspect that could be quicker if you have crowds of people attempting to use the barriers, it may not be that much further either (just need to use the bridge to save some walking to the buffers) <D
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In a world where the railway has to try and make as much money from its assets as possible, the potential passenger flows through the Northern gateline were not considered sufficient to warrant its cost. It will therefore become a retail space, and generate some valuable income for the railway.

I may be missing something here, but why are barriers needed for passengers transfering between 8 & 9, they will all have tickets anyway as they have either had them checked on East Coast or entered from a compulsory ticket area and about to have them checked on east coast.
 

swt_passenger

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Hi
...Search for King’s Cross Station applications on the Camden planning website and you’ll see hundreds of applications!

That's true, I've spent many hours searching through them just to find the major applications so far!

But what about that paid side link between P8 and P9 though. That route was still fitted with the necessary overhead wayfinding signs the other day when I checked, but with a wire mesh gate half way along preventing access.

It would seem to be a quick win just to remove the gate - it may be that people will be happy to leave a train in P8 via the passageway and the P9-P11 gateline, and vice versa?
 

jon0844

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I'm just getting on a train now at King's Cross and as I walked through, I did look at the floor and boy is it dirty.

The gates for platforms 0-8 were all open earlier (1pm) too. Is that the plan during the daytime/off-peak? I mean, as long as they've got the silly barrier that lets anyone in/out without a ticket anyway, it seems silly to ever have them in use!

Given you can now walk around to platforms 9-11 by walking to the end of platform 8, it effectively means a fare dodger can get to every single platform at the moment.
 

stut

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Well, it's improving slowly.

Most people have now decided to ignore the giant-fingered brigade, and are going in through much better routes. There are now two wide gates from 0-8 to the departures concourse, and two narrow from the arrivals concourse to 0/1. A wide in that direction would be perfect! The gate in the 8-9 arch was left open.

Hopefully common sense is prevailing. I note that there is a "Meet the Managers" session tomorrow.

Moving the racks outside at KX would be a disaster, IMO, and certainly lead to direct action protests by cycling groups, who are already making plenty noise about the wilfully appalling road design around the area - has the Kings X go-slow happened yet?

Quite why anyone thinks I'd want to pay to store a bike a 10-minute walk away from the platforms is beyond me.
 

NY Yankee

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I'm not that familiar with the Tube, but is Kings Cross the busiest station in the system? Whenever I saw it on the BBC show, it was always congested.
 

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philjo

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I went through Kings Cross today for the first time since the new concourse opened.

First impressions:
Much more spacious & no more fighting your way along platform 8 to get to/from 9-11.
Acoustics are good as Anne is clearly audible in the concourse area. (shame it isn't Matt though!)

The floor does look much dirtier than that in St Pancras.

One criticism - I felt that the text on the departure boards is far too small. They are high up & I had difficulty reading them - & I have good eyesight. It doesn't help that I have neck problems so looking up at that angle is very uncomfortable. It isn't so bad from the balcony level (as you are looking across/down on the boards) but from the ground floor there were a few trains where I couldn't easily read where they were stopping (though knowing the timetables I could guess). I think anyone with sight problems will have difficulty.
 

Mainliner

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With regards to the complaint about the lack of CIS screens in the main train shed, there were supposed to be summary of departure screens facing into the trainsheds at the Southern gatelines. I don’t know why they haven’t been installed yet and will ask

I don't know where you mean exactly, but if the additional ones are installed, will it mean that people entering from Euston Road won't have to walk past the entrance to platforms 0-8, down to the main departure board displays, in order to find out what platform their train will leave from, and then walk back to the platforms 0-8 entrance (as I did last week, although I'll find out the platform on my phone before I go in tonight).
 

Chris125

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On a different note, its good to see the rather ugly stanchions in the trainshed are being removed and replaced by wires as confirmed in the latest Rail Engineer.

Chris
 

Aictos

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On a different note, its good to see the rather ugly stanchions in the trainshed are being removed and replaced by wires as confirmed in the latest Rail Engineer.

Chris

Basically like York then? Fingers cross they might as well do the FCC platforms as well, can't be that much expensive to do the work?
 

LE Greys

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On a different note, its good to see the rather ugly stanchions in the trainshed are being removed and replaced by wires as confirmed in the latest Rail Engineer.

Chris

Well that's good, but a bit pointless with that horrible footbridge going right accross the trainshed. A bit of disguise there would help.
 

Barclay

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Well that's good, but a bit pointless with that horrible footbridge going right accross the trainshed. A bit of disguise there would help.

I think the new footbridge is actually an improvement on the old Handyside bridge, (now in retirement at Ropley) it's certainly more lightweight in appearance. The new bridge also functions as an OHLE gantry. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder I guess!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I don't know where you mean exactly, but if the additional ones are installed, will it mean that people entering from Euston Road won't have to walk past the entrance to platforms 0-8, down to the main departure board displays, in order to find out what platform their train will leave from, and then walk back to the platforms 0-8 entrance (as I did last week, although I'll find out the platform on my phone before I go in tonight).

Not sure what you mean - there are departure boards above the main Southern gateline. I was referring to summary of departure screens in the main train sheds - these haven't been installed yet but are proposed still.
 
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