Kingham station - Infrastructure/signage

[Peter C]

Hello all,
I recently visited Kingham station after many weeks of not going and was surprised to find that not only had the old British Rail sign for the car park had been cleaned but a new sign had been installed on Platform 1 to allow for passengers to read the timetable easily.
I was wondering when this sign was put in, and some other things:

-Why are there two HST Stop Markers at the end of each platform? I'm assuming the worn-off letters once spelled 2+7 and 2+8, but I've never seen a 7-car HST set on the Cotswold Line.

-Is the mast just beyond the London end of the station a GSM-R mast? I've seen this sort of thing around before I didn't think that Kingham, being a small station, would have one.

-Why does the next signal after Kingham (London bound) always seem to default to yellow instead of "green" for a proceed aspect? I know it can show red and green, but when I visit it always shows a yellow aspect until a train has passed. It then switches to red, then I think green, before going back to yellow. Any help appreciated.

-Also, why is the relatively new footbridge so high up compared to the older one? Is this showing that the Cotswold Line may be electrified soon?

-The new waiting shelter on P1 does not have any air-conditioning. In the hottest days of the year so far, the door at the London end of the shelter was left open to allow for air to move around in the shelter. Surely these new builds would have had air-cons?

Sorry if this is a lot, but I hope someone can answer these questions for me. I can provide photos for those who may need them to get their head around what I am on about.

Thanks,

-Peter

 

[swt_passenger]

A couple of generic answers.
Replacement or new footbridges do normally allow for OHLE clearances by default, wherever they are. There are even numerous recent examples in the Southern third rail area, which are even less likely to see wires.
GSM/R masts, if it is one, are spaced at such and such a distance apart to provide adequate network coverage, and don’t need to be at stations, just wherever is convenient for access. So the size of a station is pretty much irrelevant to positioning. On the railway they are usually directional aerials with coverage along the track.

 

[Peter C]

A couple of generic answers.
Replacement or new footbridges do normally allow for OHLE clearances by default, wherever they are. There are even numerous recent examples in the Southern third rail area, which are even less likely to see wires.
GSM/R masts, if it is one, are spaced at such and such a distance apart to provide adequate network coverage, and don’t need to be at stations, just wherever is convenient for access. So the size of a station is pretty much irrelevant to positioning.

OK. Thanks for clearing those bits up.

-Peter

 

[Kingham West]

The HSTs were7 cars in the early 1990s, I think they were all lengthened , by intercity , on the Western.
I rather doubt the economics stack up for AC, in the waiting room .

 

[Peter C]

The HSTs were7 cars in the early 1990s, I think they were all lengthened , by intercity , on the Western.
I rather doubt the economics stack up for AC, in the waiting room .

Oh OK. Thanks - so if the HSTs were 7 cars all the way back in the 90s, why is there still a stop marker? Surely they would have taken it down by now. However, there is an old BR sign which is still maintained by the car park, so....
I still would have thought that GWR would have wanted the "best experience" for their passengers!

-Peter

 

[Kingham West]

Oh OK. Thanks - so if the HSTs were 7 cars all the way back in the 90s, why is there still a stop marker? Surely they would have taken it down by now. However, there is an old BR sign which is still maintained by the car park, so....
I still would have thought that GWR would have wanted the "best experience" for their passengers!

-Peter

There have been 7 car trains around since then , due to refurbishments etc , it’s key units stopped correctly due to Cycles etc , on short platform

 

[Peter C]

There have been 7 car trains around since then , due to refurbishments etc , it’s key units stopped correctly due to Cycles etc , on short platform

Oh OK. Thanks.

-Peter

 

[pdeaves]

Crosscountry (pre-Arriva) used to have access rights on the north Cotswolds line. 2+7 HSTs could also have turned up then, too.

 

[Peter C]

Crosscountry (pre-Arriva) used to have access rights on the north Cotswolds line. 2+7 HSTs could also have turned up then, too.

Really? I've never heard of that! I'll be looking that up on Google! (Not that I don't doubt what you've said, just curious)

-Peter

 

[pdeaves]

Why does the next signal after Kingham (London bound) always seem to default to yellow instead of "green" for a proceed aspect? I know it can show red and green,

Signal AW100R is a two aspect distant signal. It can only show yellow and green and the aspect displayed is dependent on what AW100 shows about a mile further away (red or green only).

 

[pdeaves]

Really? I've never heard of that! I'll be looking that up on Google! (Not that I don't doubt what you've said, just curious)

-Peter

Be aware that 'access rights' does not necessarily mean 'run a regular service'. The legal stuff can be found on the ORR public register (https://orrprdpubreg1.z33.web.core.windows.net/index.html). Good luck if you try to find something specific on it, the search function could be a lot better (e.g. AND operator rather than OR for multiple search terms)!

 

[Peter C]

Be aware that 'access rights' does not necessarily mean 'run a regular service'. The legal stuff can be found on the ORR public register (https://orrprdpubreg1.z33.web.core.windows.net/index.html). Good luck if you try to find something specific on it, the search function could be a lot better (e.g. AND operator rather than OR for multiple search terms)!

OK. Thanks. It seems that every train website I try and use is about 100 years old and doesn't work!

-Peter

 

[Peter C]

Signal AW100R is a two aspect distant signal. It can only show yellow and green and the aspect displayed is dependent on what AW100 shows about a mile further away (red or green only).

Oh OK. Thanks. So if AW100 could show yellow, AW100R would probably show green more? Or not? Thanks. Also, I'm assuming the AW means "Ascott-under-Wychwood" signal box?

-Peter

 

[pdeaves]

Oh OK. Thanks. So if AW100 could show yellow, AW100R would probably show green more? Or not? Thanks. Also, I'm assuming the AW means "Ascott-under-Wychwood" signal box?

Yes, AW = Ascott.
If AW had a yellow too, it would be a three aspect signal, so the chances are today's AW100R would also be a three aspect and numbered as such (it's generally better to make a complete area either 2, 3 or 4 aspect rather than a mix). In that instance, it would likely show green more (and red more often!).

 

[Peter C]

Yes, AW = Ascott.
If AW had a yellow too, it would be a three aspect signal, so the chances are today's AW100R would also be a three aspect and numbered as such (it's generally better to make a complete area either 2, 3 or 4 aspect rather than a mix). In that instance, it would likely show green more (and red more often!).

OK. Thanks for clearing that one up.

-Peter

 

[Tomnick]

From panel photos, it appears that AW100’s sole purpose is to protect the nearby CCTV crossing (it’s partway through an absolute block section), which in turn means that it’ll only be cleared after the barriers are lowered with a train approaching, and in turn AW100R will only show green when AW100 is cleared. It wouldn’t make much difference in this case if 100 was a three-aspect signal for whatever reason!

 

[jimm]

-Why are there two HST Stop Markers at the end of each platform? I'm assuming the worn-off letters once spelled 2+7 and 2+8, but I've never seen a 7-car HST set on the Cotswold Line.

-Is the mast just beyond the London end of the station a GSM-R mast? I've seen this sort of thing around before I didn't think that Kingham, being a small station, would have one.

-Why does the next signal after Kingham (London bound) always seem to default to yellow instead of "green" for a proceed aspect? I know it can show red and green, but when I visit it always shows a yellow aspect until a train has passed. It then switches to red, then I think green, before going back to yellow. Any help appreciated.

-Also, why is the relatively new footbridge so high up compared to the older one? Is this showing that the Cotswold Line may be electrified soon?

-The new waiting shelter on P1 does not have any air-conditioning. In the hottest days of the year so far, the door at the London end of the shelter was left open to allow for air to move around in the shelter. Surely these new builds would have had air-cons?

Sorry if this is a lot, but I hope someone can answer these questions for me. I can provide photos for those who may need them to get their head around what I am on about.

Thanks,

-Peter

Re HST stop markers, there was a second period in the mid-2000s when the then FGW management decided to remove buffet cars from a number of HST sets - these were later made back up to eight coach sets due to growing passenger numbers - so the markers were needed on daily basis during that period as well.

In addition, if a depot did not have enough serviceable coaches one morning, a short-formed seven-car set could turn up pretty much any time over the years. Such sets would often be diagrammed to the Cotswold Line (or Cheltenham services), as a short train was less likely to cause overcrowding problems there than on most other HST routes.

New footbridges all over the network have been built with enough clearance for overhead wires as standard for the 50 years or so. Just up the line, Moreton-in-Marsh is on to its second such bridge, with a step and ramp structure installed in the mid-2000s replacing one that just had steps, that dated back to about 1970.

As noted above, the signal's only job is to indicate to drivers whether the signal protecting Bruern level crossing is showing red or green, so it can only show amber or green. It is not a section signal. If there is disruption in the area, trains have to be held at Ascott-under-Wychwood or Moreton-in-Marsh, which mark the two ends of the signal section.

Why should a waiting room, which most people use for a matter of minutes, while waiting for a train, need air conditioning to allow for the odd few exceptionally hot days each year?

Crosscountry (pre-Arriva) used to have access rights on the north Cotswolds line. 2+7 HSTs could also have turned up then, too.

CrossCountry trains have not been diverted along the Cotswold Line since BR days. The increase in service frequency under Thames Trains basically chewed up most of the spare capacity on the then still long single-line sections and substituting XC trains for the regular service trains was not an option - even before the arrival of Voyagers - due to the number of passengers who would have had to share a train.

 

[Peter C]

Re HST stop markers, there was a second period in the mid-2000s when the then FGW management decided to remove buffet cars from a number of HST sets - these were later made back up to eight coach sets due to growing passenger numbers - so the markers were needed on daily basis during that period as well.

In addition, if a depot did not have enough serviceable coaches one morning, a short-formed seven-car set could turn up pretty much any time over the years. Such sets would often be diagrammed to the Cotswold Line (or Cheltenham services), as a short train was less likely to cause overcrowding problems there than on most other HST routes.

New footbridges all over the network have been built with enough clearance for overhead wires as standard for the 50 years or so. Just up the line, Moreton-in-Marsh is on to its second such bridge, with a step and ramp structure installed in the mid-2000s replacing one that just had steps, that dated back to about 1970.

As noted above, the signal's only job is to indicate to drivers whether the signal protecting Bruern level crossing is showing red or green, so it can only show amber or green. It is not a section signal. If there is disruption in the area, trains have to be held at Ascott-under-Wychwood or Moreton-in-Marsh, which mark the two ends of the signal section.

Why should a waiting room, which most people use for a matter of minutes, while waiting for a train, need air conditioning to allow for the odd few exceptionally hot days each year?

Thanks.
I just thought that it might get a bit hot and stuffy in the waiting room, and seen as some people may get there for their trains a bit early, like I saw just the other day, having a nice place to sit down in would have been nice.

-Peter

 

[pdeaves]

it can only show amber or green

It can only show yellow or green. Yellow, please!

 

[reddragon]

HST sets on Thames Valley stoppers were often still 7 car until the end as often were made up of a failed / mixed set of carriages. Once had a set of just TFs & buffets + a TGS, they must have been desperate that day!

 

[Peter C]

HST sets on Thames Valley stoppers were often still 7 car until the end as often were made up of a failed / mixed set of carriages. Once had a set of just TFs & buffets + a TGS, they must have been desperate that day!

Very interesting! That must have been a bad day for whoever put that set together!

-Peter

 

[Peter C]

On a slightly different note, did anything of note happen to the footbridge at Kingham, as in the old one, when it was taken down? Was it just scrapped or was it sent somewhere else? Wikipedia does not give any information.

-Peter

 

[pdeaves]

Was it just scrapped or was it sent somewhere else? Wikipedia does not give any information.

My note (written before the event) says "will be taken away". I don't know if or how what happened matched this (i.e. taken away complete or in pieces), but the note doesn't say 'scrapped'.

 

[Peter C]

My note (written before the event) says "will be taken away". I don't know if or how what happened matched this (i.e. taken away complete or in pieces), but the note doesn't say 'scrapped'.

I found an excellent Flickr account (https://www.flickr.com/photos/willc2009/) which has loads of photos of the Cotswold Line, and one of them says that it was taken away in stages. Here is one of his photos:

The photo and caption show that the footbridge was taken away in stages but nothing is said about it after that.

-Peter

 

[jimm]

On a slightly different note, did anything of note happen to the footbridge at Kingham, as in the old one, when it was taken down? Was it just scrapped or was it sent somewhere else? Wikipedia does not give any information.

-Peter

The old footbridge was removed because it was suffering from severe corrosion. So far as I know, it was sent straight to a scrapyard, except for the decorative 'feet' - which can be seen picked out in white paint on the photo above - which were left embedded in the platforms to provide the corner posts for some new flowerbeds.

 

[Peter C]

The old footbridge was removed because it was suffering from severe corrosion. So far as I know, it was sent straight to a scrapyard, except for the decorative 'feet' - which can be seen picked out in white paint on the photo above - which were left embedded in the platforms to provide the corner posts for some new flowerbeds.

Interesting - thanks!
Where are these flowerbeds? I don't know of any at Kingham that look like those.

-Peter

 

[Peter C]

A couple of questions, concerning signage:
Are the heritage-style signs actually from GWR days or are they new replicas? Just wondering. I've heard different accounts concerning this.
The modern signs - why did GWR not make new signs? I would have thought that they would have wanted to make some new signs for their routes as at the moment on the Cotswold Line the current signs saying "Kingham" are all old FGW signs which have had their FGW branding (if any) covered with a GWR logo on green background at the bottom of the sign. I was just wondering if GWR were planning to change these signs? The Cotswolds & Malverns Line branding is still in FGW colours on them.

-Peter

 

[Peter C]

Just wondering if anyone knew of answers to the above. Thanks.

-Peter

 

[jimm]

I think there are other things that are higher priorities for spending than replacing fairly new new nameboards - Cholsey station still has some that must be about 30 years old and were put up by BR Network South East.

While I believe the posts of the running-in boards at Kingham are indeed the GWR originals, the nameboards themselves are not - hardly surprising when you see the amount of information there was on them in the past when it was a junction station

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kingham-...n-Junction-Shipton-Adlestrop-10-/252567945092

 

[Peter C]

I think there are other things that are higher priorities for spending than replacing fairly new new nameboards - Cholsey station still has some that must be about 30 years old and were put up by BR Network South East.

While I believe the posts of the running-in boards at Kingham are indeed the GWR originals, the nameboards themselves are not - hardly surprising when you see the amount of information there was on them in the past when it was a junction station

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kingham-...n-Junction-Shipton-Adlestrop-10-/252567945092

Fair point - thanks.
The eBay link isn't working for me, but I know what you mean - I have seen photos of the old "Chipping Norton Junction" signs and they did have quite a bit of info on them.

-Peter