keyGo and circuitous routes charging

[MrJeeves]

For those not familiar, the Key smartcard is GTR's (or Go-Ahead group's) ITSO-compatible smartcard for bus and train. keyGo is the post-pay fare calculation system for the Key where tap in's/out's are converted into an overall fare at 4:30am the next day.

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Is it just me, or is keyGo susceptible to people using circuitous routes to destinations?

For example, one could travel on a train from Brighton to Lewes, then Lewes to Haywards Heath, then Haywards Heath to Burgess Hill while keyGo will only charge for the journey from Brighton to Burgess Hill as it assumes the cheapest route from origin to destination and touches in between.

Since no touches were made at any changing points, the keyGo charging system will not know to charge for this route.

I see no mention in the keyGo T's and C's (attached) about this, and I believe a passenger would be carring a "valid ticket" in terms of the NRCoC and byelaws as GTR recognise a validated keyGo-enabled Key smartcard (that's a mouthful) as a valid ticket for travel.

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Under the "best day fare" annex...

We will charge you the cheapest fare based upon the taps you have made on your journey and the journey length to best guess the route you took.

I suppose they might be able to "guess" which route I travelled by, but on a long string of spurious changes, it wouldn't really be possible.

Under "Using keyGo"...

You must always touch “in” and touch “out” with your Key Smartcard by placing it flat on a yellow card reader or Oyster reader at the ticket gate or free standing validator (a “Validator”) at the station where you start and finish your rail Journey.

Well, I'm not starting or finishing a journey by changing trains, so I don't think this applies.

The only thing someone could really get caught out by is the maximum journey time of 4 hours and 36 mins (which I assume is the longest possible route that can be taken via keyGo, plus a small margin for transit across the station and disruption).

 

[zero]

Well, it's the same with contactless on TfL. Not sure how revenue inspections take place on keygo

 

[Jan Mayen]

Under definitions in the Key Go terms and conditions, there should be a section defining the journey as valid under the routeing Guide. However, I've just looked and it's incomplete.
Regarding enforcement, I understand that they will be looking for a tap in date and time, then looking to see if you are using a ticket or KeyGo

 

[MrJeeves]

Under definitions in the Key Go terms and conditions, there should be a section defining the journey as valid under the routeing Guide. However, I've just looked and it's incomplete.
Regarding enforcement, I understand that they will be looking for a tap in date and time, then looking to see if you are using a ticket or KeyGo

Indeed, that's how it works.

They check for the presence of keyGo on the smart card, then ensure you have a transient ticket from somewhere.

It does make me wonder how far I could possibly test this.

 

[Watershed]

Indeed, that's how it works.

They check for the presence of keyGo on the smart card, then ensure you have a transient ticket from somewhere.

It does make me wonder how far I could possibly test this.

It's only really of much use if you want to travel via a non-permitted route (perhaps the fastest route for your journey isn't permitted), or if you want to do some bashing. It's not of much use to most people and so it doesn't really represent much of a loophole.

 

[Starmill]

Is it just me, or is keyGo susceptible to people using circuitous routes to destinations?

Why would anyone care if this is being done? The customer cannot enter or leave a gated station without paying the same fare as if they'd bought a paper ticket to there. The customer cannot easily make an incorrect journey without touching in/out at an ungated station because of the maximum journey time and the hassle factor.

I just don't see how there's an issue here. GTR are in no way going to suffer any financial loss. There is a convenience gain from being able to use Pay as you Go which actually makes it slightly more likely that people will pay, because they won't run the risk of missing their train in queues for ticket machines or offices and there is no need to declare what you'll do all day before you start your first journey.

 

[MrJeeves]

Why would anyone care if this is being done? The customer cannot enter or leave a gated station without paying the same fare as if they'd bought a paper ticket to there. The customer cannot easily make an incorrect journey without touching in/out at an ungated station because of the maximum journey time and the hassle factor.

I just don't see how there's an issue here. GTR are in no way going to suffer any financial loss. There is a convenience gain from being able to use Pay as you Go which actually makes it slightly more likely that people will pay, because they won't run the risk of missing their train in queues for ticket machines or offices and there is no need to declare what you'll do all day before you start your first journey.

The main benefit is for someone like a train enthusiast, who might be able to ride all sorts of different routes and to all sorts of stations across the network, while paying a significantly lower fare than they would have to with a paper ticket.

 

[JonathanH]

The main benefit is for someone like a train enthusiast, who might be able to ride all sorts of different routes and to all sorts of stations across the network, while paying a significantly lower fare than they would have to with a paper ticket.

It is a niche issue though. How much actual revenue is lost if someone makes a circuitous journey like Victoria - Gatwick - Redhill or Liverpool Street - Shenfield - Romford rather than going direct?

 

[Surreytraveller]

If you tapped in at Brighton, and out at Victoria, how does it know whether to charge you a Gatwick Express fare or not? Its not going to know whether you travelled on a Thameslink to Gatwick?

 

[Hadders]

If you tapped in at Brighton, and out at Victoria, how does it know whether to charge you a Gatwick Express fare or not? Its not going to know whether you travelled on a Thameslink to Gatwick?

The gate line on platforms 13 and 14 is used by Gatwick Express is set up to charge the higher fare. If a non GX train uses these platforms staff open side gates for you to exit via a gate line that charges the lower fare.

 

[Surreytraveller]

The gate line on platforms 13 and 14 is used by Gatwick Express is set up to charge the higher fare. If a non GX train uses these platforms staff open side gates for you to exit via a gate line that charges the lower fare.

Of course! I was aware of that with Oyster. Less so with keyGo. Still, surely it cannot be foolproof?

 

[Alex365Dash]

There are still other TOC only (or I guess TOC only that GTR pretends are brand only or brand excluded) fares on the GTR network - how would KeyGo determine, when travelling from say, Gatwick Airport to Brighton, whether I travelled on Thameslink or also used other services as well? Gatwick to Brighton has Thameslink Only fares which are cheaper than the Any Permitted fare.

 

[Watershed]

There are still other TOC only (or I guess TOC only that GTR pretends are brand only or brand excluded) fares on the GTR network - how would KeyGo determine, when travelling from say, Gatwick Airport to Brighton, whether I travelled on Thameslink or also used other services as well? Gatwick to Brighton has Thameslink Only fares which are cheaper than the Any Permitted fare.

I think it's based on the closest itinerary it can find, given your touch in/out times.

 

[planetf1]

I’ve traveled via bus to Brighton station, onto thameslink a few times. Direct to lbr and changing at east Croydon due to cancellations and correctly veg charged the tl only fare with plusbus. Super

Just wish it did auto travel card in London too

 

[planetf1]

Well, it's the same with contactless on TfL. Not sure how revenue inspections take place on keygo

I got ticket checked using keygo a month or two back. The guard had to go back to get a different device (not phone?) and was perfectly happy, presumably as long as keygo is valid that’s fine (and I had tapped in)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Aug 2022 ==

I do wish there was a mobile app that would let me see my tap-ins in real time. Bit like monzo bank transactions … not sure if the taps are stored on the card itself too? I presume not, so reading that wouldn’t help

 

[MrJeeves]

Yeah, I've found that the RPIs use the Rambus scanner app (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ecebs.cardviewer).

You can see your last tap in with this, and check if you've tapped out.

RPIs just check for a transient ticket.

 

[planetf1]

Yeah, I've found that the RPIs use the Rambus scanner app (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ecebs.cardviewer).

You can see your last tap in with this, and check if you've tapped out.

RPIs just check for a transient ticket.

Any recommendations for an app that would show the same on iOS. Could be useful to check when travelling?

 

[MrJeeves]

Any recommendations for an app that would show the same on iOS. Could be useful to check when travelling?

Believe the same app is available on iOS, too?

 

[Alex365Dash]

Any recommendations for an app that would show the same on iOS. Could be useful to check when travelling?

Believe the same app is available on iOS, too?

It is indeed!

Smart Ticket Checker App - App Store

Download Smart Ticket Checker by Ecebs on the App Store. See screenshots, ratings and reviews, user tips and more games like Smart Ticket Checker.

apps.apple.com