Keolis Amey Wales - Future Rolling Stock

[krus_aragon]

Is the whole 175 fleet staying until 2022 or is it more likely they will be phased out gradually from around 2020 as the new trains are phased in over a couple of years?

You can see an illustrative diagram of fleet introduction and withdrawal timescales on page 3 of this annex to the annoucement made at the Assembly when the franchise was awarded.

 

[Philip]

Thanks

Bit of a rarity tonight, two 153s are working a Carmarthen-Manchester service, currently at Crewe. What gives them 'that' smell inside?

 

[ATW158Xpress]

Thanks

Bit of a rarity tonight, two 153s are working a Carmarthen-Manchester service, currently at Crewe. What gives them 'that' smell inside?

I was waiting in Newport and was the last thing to show up on the 17:04 to Manchester.

 

[CeeJ]

see post #541

Now they can angrily point at the whole train!

 

[Rhydgaled]

So the 153s will only be able to provide 'extra' trains to release 150s for PRM work for 6 - 7 months next year, before they will have to be permanently attached to other trains and so whilst boosting capacity of existing trains, won't help to increase the number of trains running overall and won't be able to act as PRM cover if all of Wales' 150s & 158s aren't modified by 2020.

Remember that the 769s were supposed to be the PRM cover; I doubt the extra 153s were intended as PRM cover but may end up being such due to the late-appearance of the 769s. Due to the May 2019 due date for the extra 153s, I've a sneaky suspicion that they were originally intended as a summer capacity-boost on the Pembroke & Tenby line given that, when the ITT was being written, the GWR summer Saturday service was expected to be withdrawn (I certainly tried to make the powers that be aware of this in my response to the various consultations, and others probably did the same).

Edwina Hart, Ken Skates, Carwyn Jones and TfW are the ones to blame and responsible for the fleet crisis facing Wales. They were warned in 2013 to start preparing immediately to modify Wales' trains and at least get a plan in place. They did nothing and ignored all advice from the ROSCOs and rail experts

Yes, WAG have dirt on their hands with this one but there is a good case for blaming the UK government / DfT too. Letting a no-growth franchise, with no obligation to make trains 2020-compliant, that ends so-close to the deadline was as irresponsible was WAG's decision to ignore the advice of ROSCOs and experts. Blame both Cardiff Bay and London I say.

Welsh Government didn't have to wait until the new franchise to electrify the valleys there could have been a rolling programme going on for some years ow and Pacers wouldn't be an issue.

They could (and probably should) have done so yes; but they have a good reason for not doing so. Rail infrustructure is not devolved, meaning WAG don't get any money for that in their block grant; they can invest in rail but only by taking funds from other purposes.

So the metro trains get Grammer R3000, but yet the long-distance gets Fainsa Ironing Board.

What?!

Ironing board seats, no tables, luggage racks aligned with windows better than the seats are, doors at thirds... That's NOT a regional express (inter-urban) train; not even a regional one. It's a suburban/commuter unit. Good for Cardiff-Cheltenham and Liverpool-Llandudno stoppers maybe; but not alot else outside the Cardiff metro.

One thing about a 3/4 year lead time at least we can lobby hard before they get built.

I'm in. Now, how exactly does one lobby 'hard' and actually get anywhere? So far, I've written to three assembly members; one hasn't replied and one probably didn't get my message because he resigned soon after I sent it. The third did contact Ken Skates and later forwarded the minister's response to me which basiclly just claimed that the new trains would be great and have comfortable seating.

Is it? I would have thought it might be better to tag a few DMU's on at the very end of the order to eventually replace the MK4's perhaps or 3 x 4 car sets with a small kitchen, rather than maintaining the aging MK4's until the end of the franchise.

I do find a little bizarre that new DMU's are good enough for the Manchester route but not for these special services on the Holyhead route.

Well, for the reasons noted above, they're not good enough for the Manchester routes. In the case of Manchester - south Wales though the failure to improve services for S.W. Wales means that DMUs are necessary so that you can have 5-car between Manchester and Swansea with 2-car continuing west. If they introduced a seperate Cardiff-Carmarthen/Milford DMU service they could have done LHCS for Manchester-Swansea as well; a missed opertunity in my view. Still, as Gareth Marston has said, let's lobby hard to make sure the DMUs are at least suitable DMUs rather than the poor showing in the pictures shown so far.

Still no news on where the standard only 3 car units will be deployed.

Still some time away yet, but in terms of the 3-coach CAF units, from a total of 26:

10 x Manchester to Swansea, all with FC.
2 x FC units on maintenance/spare.
6 x Manchester to Bangor standard only; 5 would cover an hourly service but there may be some services continuing to Holyhead.
4 x Liverpool to Shrewsbury/Cardiff standard only.
2 x Liverpool to Llandudno standard only.
2 x standard only for maintenance/spare.

So of the 51 two coach sets; 7 for maintenance, 12 tagged on to Manchester - Swansea services to work forward to West Wales, 2 for remaining Liverpool to Llandudno services, 2 for Conwy Valley, 1 for Crewe to Chester, 2 for strengthening the Manchester - Bangor route and for spare duties. It'd leave about 25 units to work doubled up hourly Birmingham to Cambrian services, with peak time trains and maybe some daytime portion workings running in treble 6-car formations. Would 25 two coach units be enough to cover a sound Cambrian line service?

Interesting questions; what do those of you who use the routes in question think is needed in terms of train length? I'm not a frequent user of the rail system, and most of the journeys I do make on ATW are in S.W. Wales (and sometimes as far as Cardiff), but my guesses for what is actually needed would be:
5-car

Swansea-Manchester​

4-car

Manchester-Bangor (5-car in Manchester peaks with 3-car unit detaching for Llandudno and 2-car continuing to Bangor)​

3-car

Liverpool-Llandudno
Birmingham-Holyhead
Birmingham-Aberystwyth (combining with the above to give 6-car east of Shrewsbury)
Birmingham-Pwllheli (summer)​

I've no idea how busy I think the Liverpool/Holyhead-Cardiff workings would be. The problem with making the Birmingham-Holyhead 3-car is that it has to be the unit at the north end in Shrewsbury station, which is then at the east end of Machynlleth station and ends up going to Pwllheli (which in summer would be a good thing but probably overkill in winter). So maybe the Holyhead-Birmingham would be 4-car, but then it would be a 7-car train east of Shrewsbury once the Aberystwyth portion couples up.

Personally, I think the micro-fleet of non-tri-mode Flirts should be cancelled, the 170s used on Cardiff-Cheltenham/Ebbw Vale/Maesteg etc., the number of CAF units reduced (but not the number of vehicles; with more 3-car units) and either the 175s OR the 158s retained to work Heart Of Wales and Conwy Valley services along with a new Cardiff-Carmarthen hourly service with alternate trips continuing to Milford Haven giving the latter a roughly hourly service. There would be three or maybe four types of CAF unit:

• class 197/0 2-car units (class 196/397 combo)
  
• class 197/1 3-car units (class 196/397 combo)
  
• class 197/1 3-car units (class 196/397 combo with first class)
• class 196/3 3-car units (suburban unit for Liverpool-Llandudno stoppers and Cardiff-Shrewsbury stoppers if that's a thing)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Bit of a rarity tonight, two 153s are working a Carmarthen-Manchester service, currently at Crewe. What gives them 'that' smell inside?

If it's the musty smell I think you mean, it's from 3 decades of Welsh (and English) rain blowing in through the hopper windows (which burst open in a gale).
150s can be similar, but the ATW ones have had an internal refurb that's only 10 years old or so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If it's the musty smell I think you mean, it's from 3 decades of Welsh (and English) rain blowing in through the hopper windows (which burst open in a gale).
150s can be similar, but the ATW ones have had an internal refurb that's only 10 years old or so.

All 153s have a distinctive smell that other units don't, I thought it was down to the smell from the heated insulation caused by the exhaust pipe being routed through the passenger cabin rather than the more usual position outside.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I'm in. Now, how exactly does one lobby 'hard' and actually get anywhere? So far, I've written to three assembly members; one hasn't replied and one probably didn't get my message because he resigned soon after I sent it. The third did contact Ken Skates and later forwarded the minister's response to me which basiclly just claimed that the new trains would be great and have comfortable seating.

There's precedent with the current ATW Class 158's- the original WG approved spec was much poorer than what was actually installed. SARPA worked with ATW who understood the issues (window alignment, qty of tables) and were amenable to make changes- all this went on behind WG back who were still vehemently instating that the original spec was the dogs bollocks even after the first "altered" unit rolled out of LNWR....

 

[Rhydgaled]

There's precedent with the current ATW Class 158's- the original WG approved spec was much poorer than what was actually installed. SARPA worked with ATW who understood the issues (window alignment, qty of tables) and were amenable to make changes- all this went on behind WG back who were still vehemently instating that the original spec was the dogs bollocks even after the first "altered" unit rolled out of LNWR....

Which doesn't exactly answer my question of what I can do to help get these new trains revised. From your message I'm guessing I need to contact TfW or KeolisAmey rather than the WAG, but KeolisAmey don't start 'til October (and if they're anything like Arriva will ignore my e-mails) by which time CAF may be close to locking-down the design of the new units. How long have we got? We also have no idea how long it will take for my local community rail partnership (S.W. Wales) to be re-established; by the time it happens the first of the new trains might well be in-build if not even on-test.

 

[squizzler]

Which doesn't exactly answer my question of what I can do to help get these new trains revised. From your message I'm guessing I need to contact TfW or KeolisAmey rather than the WAG, but KeolisAmey don't start 'til October (and if they're anything like Arriva will ignore my e-mails) by which time CAF may be close to locking-down the design of the new units. How long have we got? We also have no idea how long it will take for my local community rail partnership (S.W. Wales) to be re-established; by the time it happens the first of the new trains might well be in-build if not even on-test.

Presumably the West midlands units are still being designed, and even when construction of those commences it will be a while before they finish and the work start in earnest on the TfW sets.

It begs the question of how much continuous improvement takes place on the rest of the sets. Will the Wales and Borders sets be mechanically evolved over those being supplied to the north, or are they only different in the bodywork?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Which doesn't exactly answer my question of what I can do to help get these new trains revised. From your message I'm guessing I need to contact TfW or KeolisAmey rather than the WAG, but KeolisAmey don't start 'til October (and if they're anything like Arriva will ignore my e-mails) by which time CAF may be close to locking-down the design of the new units. How long have we got? We also have no idea how long it will take for my local community rail partnership (S.W. Wales) to be re-established; by the time it happens the first of the new trains might well be in-build if not even on-test.

Again there is a positive point on this in that the CAF units will be used all over Wales and the Borders so there will be lots of individuals and organizations with an interest in this issue in Wales and England. Whilst you may not get the answer your looking for from an individual approach it will count as part of cumulative pressure. Other will be doing the same.

 

[krus_aragon]

I think we can be sure that the Pacers won't be touched. My money is on the 175s being re-liveried and having the interiors refreshed first as the 175s are the units in most need of a refresh inside and out.

Anyone know why the 175s are the only class not to get the most recent ATW livery? (Excluding the 142s)

Apparently ATW have started reliveried the 175s, even if only on their website:


Banner advert for ATW's travel information page, with a class 175 (identifiable by outline and door layout) in the dark turquoise livery applied to 158s 150s etc.

 

[Charlie M.]

Apparently ATW have started reliveried the 175s, even if only on their website:

View attachment 50914
Banner advert for ATW's travel information page, with a class 175 (identifiable by outline and door layout) in the dark turquoise livery applied to 158s 150s etc.

Oh come on, surely your not that pickey

 

[Philip]

Do the PA and destination systems on the 175s still have the North West routes programmed in? It's just that I'm assuming they will soon make changes to it so that it won't announce 'Arriva Trains Wales' anymore, but the last time they did this it confused the computer and it would start announcing stations for Blackpool North or Windermere while on a Wales service.

 

[superalbs]

Found this video of the new Stadler units CGI being shown off inside and out.

Looks like the Grammer seats have been replaced with Fisa LEAN seats.

 

[Cardiff123]

Found this video of the new Stadler units CGI being shown off inside and out.

Looks like the Grammer seats have been replaced with Fisa LEAN seats.

Is there a video of the Citylink Metro vehicles?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Looks like it has First Class - there are some seats shown with double armrests. Most odd for South Wales local services! Reservation displays too.

Nonetheless they still look good. I did think Grammer IC3000s were odd for a local unit.

 

[Cardiff123]

Looks like it has First Class - there are some seats shown with double armrests. Most odd for South Wales local services! Reservation displays too.

Nonetheless they still look good. I did think Grammer IC3000s were odd for a local unit.

First class on the Rhymney - Barry/Penarth trains would be a complete waste of space and capacity, with that compartment permanently carrying around fresh air.
Passengers are constantly complaining that they want to pay less for train fares in the Valleys, not more!

The press release https://wwwstadlerrailcom-live-01e9...8_0813_media_release_wales_and_borders_en.pdf mentions there being room for 6 bikes per train. Hopefully this applies to the Citylink Metro vehicles as well as the Flirts.

 

[Dai Corner]

Looks like it has First Class - there are some seats shown with double armrests. Most odd for South Wales local services! Reservation displays too.

Nonetheless they still look good. I did think Grammer IC3000s were odd for a local unit.

The First Class is for Swansea-Manchester, attaching/detaching a standard class portion for west wales I think?

 

[Cardiff123]

The First Class is for Swansea-Manchester, attaching/detaching a standard class portion for west wales.

Those will be the CAF units though. That video is for the Stadler Flirts that will operate Rhymney - Penarth/Barry/Bridgend, Maesteg - Cheltenham and Ebbw Vale.

 

[Dai Corner]

Those will be the CAF units though. That video is for the Stadler Flirts.

Ah yes. Oops!

 

[dorsetdesiro]

*gasps* no ironing boards!

We'll see, if it's anything like that in reality...

 

[AlexNL]

Interesting to note: the Stadler render shows bodyside cameras. Is this a Stadler thingie, a mistake, or a requirement set by WG/UK gov to maximise rolling stock reusability?

 

[Cardiff123]

Interesting to note: the Stadler render shows bodyside cameras. Is this a Stadler thingie, a mistake, or a requirement set by WG/UK gov to maximise rolling stock reusability?

WG have been unequivocal in their committment to a guard on every train so the bodyside cameras will be redundant whilst the trains operate in Wales

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting to note: the Stadler render shows bodyside cameras. Is this a Stadler thingie, a mistake, or a requirement set by WG/UK gov to maximise rolling stock reusability?

I believe DaFT requires all new UK stock to be DOO capable to maximise redeployment options. There's also the possibility that they might consider driver-operated doors to make it easier for the guard (still fully trained) to do revenue etc in the manner as is being proposed for East Anglia on their FLIRTs.

 

[Cardiff123]

I believe DaFT requires all new UK stock to be DOO capable to maximise redeployment options. There's also the possibility that they might consider driver-operated doors to make it easier for the guard (still fully trained) to do revenue etc in the manner as is being proposed for East Anglia on their FLIRTs.

I should imagine the RMT will have something to say about that idea and would take action accordingly, which Welsh Govt are desperate to avoid.

The RMT probably would much rather guards do doors only with extra on board ticket inspectors deployed to tackle fare evasion and collect revenue, esp within the Metro area

 

[Gareth Marston]

Cant but help think that the FLIRT's are a far better quality of unit than the TramTrain things that will be put on the Treherbert/Aberdare/Merthyr services essentially doing a similar job in a similar area.

Once the big smiles and big self congratulation of the opening ceremony is just a throwaway clip on YouTube i'm sure Shwni will be noticing the two tier quality of rolling stock in the Cardiff Suburban network.

 

[Chris192]

Cant but help think that the FLIRT's are a far better quality of unit than the TramTrain things that will be put on the Treherbert/Aberdare/Merthyr services essentially doing a similar job in a similar area.

Once the big smiles and big self congratulation of the opening ceremony is just a throwaway clip on YouTube i'm sure Shwni will be noticing the two tier quality of rolling stock in the Cardiff Suburban network.

Isn’t that meant to be the extendable part of the network? I was under the impression that they’d be using the same CityLink rolling stock to start expanding street running (beyond the Cardiff Bay link) at some point in the future.

 

[Cardiff123]

Isn’t that meant to be the extendable part of the network? I was under the impression that they’d be using the same CityLink rolling stock to start expanding street running (beyond the Cardiff Bay link) at some point in the future.

Yes, 'at some point in the future', which if Brexit goes ahead and Wales loses all EU RDF funding, will mean never.
A '3 car' CityLink Metro vehicle is no longer than a 2 car 150/2. Some services will therefore see no increase in capacity with no toilets and possibly no room for bikes, along a route which follows the popular Taff trail.

Meanwhile Rhymney - Vale of Glamorgan services will always be at least 3 or 4 car full length trains.

Still no word on whether fully qualified guards will be operating the CityLink tram-trains or whether they'll be DOO with OBS doing revenue collection.

 

[class387]

Found this video of the new Stadler units CGI being shown off inside and out.

Looks like the Grammer seats have been replaced with Fisa LEAN seats.

There seems to be a pattern here - the Anglia Flirts were also first shown with Grammer seats which were then switched to Fisa Lean:

Looks like it has First Class - there are some seats shown with double armrests. Most odd for South Wales local services! Reservation displays too.

Nonetheless they still look good. I did think Grammer IC3000s were odd for a local unit.

I was under the impression that the pictures with Grammer seats were of the tram trains, not the Flirts. Seems unlikely that they would use different seat designs though.