Keolis/Amey to take over Wales and Borders

[northwichcat]

That could well be the case - the existing Borderlands service can be operated using 3 units (running time is 61 minutes, so 2 is inadequate), leaving 2 for use elsewhere, and 153s to substitute for a failure.

It's 57 minutes end to end in the working timetable and immediate turnarounds at both ends. It get's longer in the evening peak which is why the trains are more than 60 minutes apart.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's 57 minutes end to end in the working timetable and immediate turnarounds at both ends. It get's longer in the evening peak which is why the trains are more than 60 minutes apart.

6 minutes layover in the hour is not adequate, it's barely enough to change ends yet alone any recovery. Do they only use two now? If so what is punctuality like?

 

[cactustwirly]

6 minutes layover in the hour is not adequate, it's barely enough to change ends yet alone any recovery. Do they only use two now? If so what is punctuality like?

Yes it's only 2 units.
Punctuality was fine last time I used it.
I suppose it's a simple line, where the only point of delay is Bidston where it interacts with Merseyrail

It's the same with the Reading - Basingstoke shuttle, but the punctuation with that isn't as good IME

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes it's only 2 units.
Punctuality was fine last time I used it.
I suppose it's a simple line, where the only point of delay is Bidston where it interacts with Merseyrail

It's the same with the Reading - Basingstoke shuttle, but the punctuation with that isn't as good IME

I suppose it's possible that they could take 2-3 minutes off each run with the superior acceleration of the 230, which would give you 10 minutes in the hour which I'd say is about right.

With that many stops, switching to driver door release (guard close, as there is no talk of DOO) may well save a further minute or two over the classic style of branch line faffing.

Indeed, could both those factors allow for a 2 hourly clockface Llandudno Junction to Blaenau service? Apparently it was tried before but neither Class 101s nor Sprinters could keep to time, but with significantly improved acceleration it may well be doable. Clockface would be a huge improvement for the branch. It presently seems to be timed for 62 minutes from the Junction.

 

[northwichcat]

6 minutes layover in the hour is not adequate, it's barely enough to change ends yet alone any recovery. Do they only use two now? If so what is punctuality like?

Wrexham end a lot of departures 2 minutes late: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...7/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=AW
But then they are generally 2 minutes early arriving at Bidston and depart for Wrexham on time: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...7/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=AW

 

[krus_aragon]

Wrexham end a lot of departures 2 minutes late: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...7/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=AW
But then they are generally 2 minutes early arriving at Bidston and depart for Wrexham on time: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...7/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=AW

But (from experience) when there is a delay, it's a long while until the time can be made up.

 

[northwichcat]

Just thought a 3 car D-Train might be an issue on Chester Race Days. ATW can use a doubled up 4 car 150 currently and it can get very full.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So they'll be alternating with 90mph Voyagers on Crewe-Chester, as I feared, at least for a period until the Civitys arrive .
Be interesting to see the reaction of top-dollar London-bound fare-payers at Chester (aiming for VT at Crewe) when they come in.
15 years ago they had new 175s providing the connection, until ATW took them away for Cardiff services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So they'll be alternating with 90mph Voyagers on Crewe-Chester, as I feared, at least for a period until the Civitys arrive .
Be interesting to see the reaction of top-dollar London-bound fare-payers at Chester (aiming for VT at Crewe) when they come in.

Actually, scratch what I originally wrote.

The top-dollar London-bound fare payers at Chester would be using the direct service! The only case for making a connection is for a lower Advance fare or to use WMT, neither of which will care as long as it's cheaper.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

https://tfw.gov.wales/journey-begins

"Free travel for under 5s extended to under 11s. Half-price fares extended to 16 – 18 year-olds. Under 16s go free off peak."

So they plan on upping the free age to 11 like the London underground. That is a self contained business though and wont cause any issues.

If I buy an off peak return and my son who is 10 and he comes with me for free will his tickets say "WALES & BORDERS ONLY" or will it be universally accepted on virgin, northern or whoever else I may use to get there and back? Because in theory he should be paying half price on other operators.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd expect that like with LU under 11s there will be no ticket, and it will only be offered with an accompanying adult. If you wish to use VT/Northern you'll buy a regular child ticket.

For 11-16 I wonder if they will introduce something like Oyster Zip which can be withdrawn for misuse?

While this will heavily dent Welsh Family Railcard sales (but will one still be able to pay for a 10 year old anyway to get the adult discount?) it will do well to encourage lower car use.

 

[northwichcat]

I'd expect that like with LU under 11s there will be no ticket. If you wish to use VT/Northern you'll buy a regular child ticket.

If that's the case the interesting scenario will be what happens during disruption, unless the offer for under 11s is only valid between Welsh stations. For example, say you were Liverpool based and took a child to Crewe Heritage Centre with you on a W&B service but then when you try to return there's disruption meaning there's no W&B services back and tickets are being accepted on Virgin and LNWR services - but the under 11 doesn't have a ticket!

 

[Bletchleyite]

If that's the case the interesting scenario will be what happens during disruption, unless the offer for under 11s is only valid between Welsh stations.

As it will be paid for by Welsh money that would not surprise me. Indeed, it wouldn't entirely surprise me if it applied to all TOCs within Wales (though something would have to be done about the "cabotage" through England) rather than to W&B anywhere.

 

[mmh]

Actually, scratch what I originally wrote.

The top-dollar London-bound fare payers at Chester would be using the direct service! The only case for making a connection is for a lower Advance fare or to use WMT, neither of which will care as long as it's cheaper.

The shuttle gives a 2tph service to/from London. I often use it on an open ticket.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Actually, scratch what I originally wrote.
The top-dollar London-bound fare payers at Chester would be using the direct service! The only case for making a connection is for a lower Advance fare or to use WMT, neither of which will care as long as it's cheaper.

Not true.
There is a constant stream of passengers at Chester and Crewe for the shuttle between the direct services.
From Llandudno the direct trains from Chester don't work as well as the connections at Crewe.
From London people get the first Crewe train (eg Manchester (Wilmslow) or Liverpool services) and change for Chester, rather than hang around for the Voyager.
Advances on the North Wales route are limited and not good value, with relatively more people using walk-up tickets.
This is because of the less strict off-peak restrictions on the coast, and the fact that a 5-car 221 is easily overbooked compared to 9/11-car 390s.

 

[Llanigraham]

And Montgomery hasn't been considered a County Town for years!!

 

[northwichcat]

Apparently Cwmbran leads the way in toilet production

orders have been placed with the leading supplier of Universal Access Toilets based in Cwmbran.

http://vivarail.co.uk/vivarail-announce-new-order-for-wales-and-borders/

 

[OrangeJuice]

https://tfw.gov.wales/journey-begins

"Free travel for under 5s extended to under 11s. Half-price fares extended to 16 – 18 year-olds. Under 16s go free off peak."

So they plan on upping the free age to 11 like the London underground. That is a self contained business though and wont cause any issues.

If I buy an off peak return and my son who is 10 and he comes with me for free will his tickets say "WALES & BORDERS ONLY" or will it be universally accepted on virgin, northern or whoever else I may use to get there and back? Because in theory he should be paying half price on other operators.

From what I remember it was usually cheaper for an adult and a child on a family and friends railcard than for an adult on their own (and can then add up to 4 adults on it). So it would still be cheaper than an adult and a child travelling for free, but you have to pay for the railcard

 

[Adsy125]

From what I remember it was usually cheaper for an adult and a child on a family and friends railcard than for an adult on their own (and can then add up to 4 adults on it). So it would still be cheaper than an adult and a child travelling for free, but you have to pay for the railcard

An adult gets 1/3 off and the child gets 2/3 off, meaning the tot fare is only 5/6 of the adult fare. It becomes better value if there is more than one adult per child.

 

[squizzler]

You obviously do not live or work in or anywhere near Cardiff and have no real life experience of the streets in and around Cardiff city centre, and have no real life experience of how the existing HR stations and alignments serve all areas in the city centre perfectly.

After all the snickering about Welsh Govt’s intention for “world class” South Wales metro services, you suggest in your posts that Cardiff’s heavy rail cross-city network not merely world class but in fact the “perfection” which Paris RER and Crossrail can only aspire towards.

 

[gareth950]

After all the snickering about Welsh Govt’s intention for “world class” South Wales metro services, you suggest in your posts that Cardiff’s heavy rail cross-city network not merely world class but in fact the “perfection” which Paris RER and Crossrail can only aspire towards.

The location of Cardiff's HR stations long pre-date the formation of the Welsh Government and the Labour party itself. As was explained extensively in the Metro thread, Cardiff is a compact city with crowded streets.
Cathays services the University, Welsh Govt civil service and the civic centre.
Queen St serves retail and offices.
Central serves the Stadium and the numerous office developments going up in the vicinity, as well as a new college.
Ninian Park serves Cardiff City stadium.

All are 5 - 10 minutes walking distance maximum.

Put trams on Cardiff's narrow, crowded streets and there's no way you'd get from Cathays to Central and out the other side on your way to Barry/Penarth in under 10 minutes.

Cardiff is in no way comparable to London or Paris in size. Be sensible.

 

[northwichcat]

The franchise brand name is going to be simply Cymru a'r Gororau/Wales & Borders. Presumably so the brand name can pass on to the next franchise like Scotrail and Northern.

 

[daikilo]

I know it is pretentious, but what if the TfW actually looked at our threads and came up with the same conclusion regarding the disbenefit of splitting serviices. The alternative would be that they weren't even thinking of it, despite the rhetoric.

 

[daikilo]

The franchise brand name is going to be simply Cymru a'r Gororau/Wales & Borders. Presumably so the brand name can pass on to the next franchise like Scotrail and Northern.

Is it? What about the massive "T" and the black and red colours on the new roling stock?

 

[northwichcat]

Is it? What about the massive "T" and the black and red colours on the new roling stock?

T for train or trenau?

http://www.railwaygazette.com/uploads/pics/tn_gb-walesborders-dtrain.jpg

 

[craigybagel]

Not true.
There is a constant stream of passengers at Chester and Crewe for the shuttle between the direct services.
From Llandudno the direct trains from Chester don't work as well as the connections at Crewe.
From London people get the first Crewe train (eg Manchester (Wilmslow) or Liverpool services) and change for Chester, rather than hang around for the Voyager.
Advances on the North Wales route are limited and not good value, with relatively more people using walk-up tickets.
This is because of the less strict off-peak restrictions on the coast, and the fact that a 5-car 221 is easily overbooked compared to 9/11-car 390s.

Exactly - by far the most common destination you'll see when you check tickets on the shuttle is London.

 

[PR1Berske]

Is it? What about the massive "T" and the black and red colours on the new roling stock?

That's the Transport/Trafnidiaeth corporate "T"

 

[daikilo]

That's the Transport/Trafnidiaeth corporate "T"

That looks like branding to me! Any other mention will be in smaller typeface and seen as "legal lettering".

 

[PR1Berske]

That looks like branding to me! Any other mention will be in smaller typeface and seen as "legal lettering".

Yeah, "Cymru a'r Gororau" will be beside the doors, I can't find the image now, sorry.

 

[6Gman]

Yes, or to Llangefni. In the meantime, Bangor has plenty of capacity for terminating services and doing so dodges the more expensive issues of the long block section between Gaerwen and Valley and the single track over the Britannia Bridge.

Is that really the case? My reading is that anything from the East terminating at Bangor then has to run into Belmont Tunnel to reverse into the Up platform. Which means that trains have to sit in one of the two platforms, or on the Down Main!