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Keir Starmer and the Labour Party

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Busaholic

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Remember when Labour & Lib Dems sort did that in the 97 election in Tatton, in order to get rid of the then scandal ridden Tory incumbent Neil Hamilton, they joined forces but rather than one party allowing the other a free reign, they introduced an anti corruption independent candidate (which was Martin Bell), & Neil Hamilton lost the seat.
It was important at the time for those specific circumstances, but was very much a one-off. Bell made it clear he'd only stand for the one term, and after being elected realised he was pretty much powerless to change anything, and his interventions in Parliamentary matters became rather random too and often supported the opposition Tory position e.g. retaining fox hunting. He later on decided he'd oppose incumbent Tory MP Eric Pickles in his Brentwood and Ongar seat at the 2002 election, but this time neither Labour nor the LibDems stood down and Pickles was re-elected with a reduced majority.

All in all, it's not a template likely to be repeated any time soon. There are even those (I'm one) who thought Bell developed rather a Messiah complex, aided perhaps by his white suit obsession.
 
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LabourList has published a summary of Labour's latest policy platform here. The expectation seems to be that Labour's manifesto next year will be based on the policy platform, so it's probably as good a guide as anything yet available to what a future Labour Government might be planning.

The stuff related to railways is this:

LabourList said:
  • Bring our railways into public ownership as contracts with existing operators expire or are broken through a failure to deliver, consistent with our fiscal rules
  • Ensure freight is part of the ongoing conversation about rail
  • Build on our successes in Labour-led local government in delivering a zero-emission bus and rail fleet, utilising local supply chains
  • Keep the promises made to the North and Midlands and deliver Northern Powerhouse Rail and High Speed 2 in full
  • Deliver a long-term strategy for rail, in consultation with trade unions, creating a stable foundation for long-term delivery of rail infrastructure across the country. Give communities a greater say in local rail services through the Take Back Control Act
  • Look at reducing the train driving licenses and certification regulations age to 18
I'm guessing the reference to HS2 has become out of date in the light of last week's developments so I wouldn't put too much store by that.

There's loads of other stuff but far too much to quote here.
 

ainsworth74

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I'd suggest using this thread to discuss Labour's policy on rail. It's our specialist subject after all so probably warrants a separate discussion :)
 

317 forever

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That one has Labour and Lib Dem split the anti-Tory vote leaving the Tory candidate free to come through the middle and win on say 35% of the vote (whilst the Lib Dems and Labour pick up for sake of argument 60% between them) written all over it due to our terrible electoral system.

Perhaps this will concentrate minds at Labour and Lib Dem HQ and encourage them to focus campaigning resources during the General Election accordingly.
To some extent they are keeping to their own target seats for campaigning. It's just that in Mid Beds, and potentially a handful of other seats, they both feel they have a chance and will both want to seek victory.
 

Kaliwax

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Don't really know which party to vote for in the next election. Never heard hardly any parties or people say what we're going to do to help and encourage support the disabled and help them live a fulfiling life, they need to talk to them like they are human beings and not threaten them with sanctions or feel like they are being targeted.
 

ainsworth74

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Never heard hardly any parties or people say what we're going to do to help and encourage support the disabled and help them live a fulfiling life, they need to talk to them like they are human beings and not threaten them with sanctions or feel like they are being targeted.
You would be mad to vote Tory if that is your concern so if you're not sure who to vote for I'd recommend voting for whoever is most likely to beat the Tories in your constituency.
 

Kaliwax

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You would be mad to vote Tory if that is your concern so if you're not sure who to vote for I'd recommend voting for whoever is most likely to beat the Tories in your constituency.

Well that is priority number 1 for me as a disabled person. I would never vote for the tories, especially some of the nasty comments I read on the Daily Mail this morning about people like me, for example go to prison, or things along that nature.

My local MP is Yvette Cooper
 

Busaholic

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You would be mad to vote Tory if that is your concern so if you're not sure who to vote for I'd recommend voting for whoever is most likely to beat the Tories in your constituency.
In the interest of balance I'd like to add that it was the Coalition government between the Tories and LibDems which scrapped the Disability Living Allowance for new claimants in 2013(?) except for under 18s, to be replaced by Personal Independence Payments (PIPs) for working age people and the Attendance Allowance for those of state pension-age. Certainly in regard to Attendance Allowance, someone like myself who has become progressively disabled with Multiple Sclerosis since retirement finds the Attendance Allowance a pathetic monetary substitute for what went before, but doubtless the government was pleased to not hand out so much.

As regards my voting intentions, the only candidate likely to beat the Tory incumbent in my Cornish constituency is the LibDem, whom I know and has been MP here. He'll get my vote on a personal and anti-Tory basis rather than any love of the LibDems nationally.
 

ainsworth74

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In the interest of balance I'd like to add that it was the Coalition government between the Tories and LibDems which scrapped the Disability Living Allowance for new claimants in 2013(?) except for under 18s, to be replaced by Personal Independence Payments (PIPs) for working age people and the Attendance Allowance for those of state pension-age. Certainly in regard to Attendance Allowance, someone like myself who has become progressively disabled with Multiple Sclerosis since retirement finds the Attendance Allowance a weak monetary substitute for what went before, but doubtless the government is pleased not to hand out so much.

It's worth noting that Attendance Allowance has been the pensioner disability benefit for a long time. I believe it traces its history back to 1975 and it will have become a pensioner only benefit in the early 1990s when Disability Living Allowance was introduced for everyone under pension age. So anyone who has reached pension age for decades and then finds need of making a claim for a disability benefit would have claimed AA even prior to the introduction of PIP to replace DLA for the 16 and over age group (in April 2013). The monetary value of the AA Low and High Rates of AA are also equivalent to the Standard and Enhanced rates of the Daily Living Component of PIP which are themselves equivalent to the Middle and High rates of DLA.

I don't disagree that the rates paid (£68.10 per week for the Middle/Standard/Lower of DLA/PIP/AA and £101.75 per week for the High/Enhanced/Higher of DLA/PIP/AA) aren't anything to write home about but there is no monetary difference between the three benefits. Obviously DLA came with a Low rate for the Care Component so a number of people who would have previously qualified missed out of that when transferred to PIP.

Plus AA has no mobility component (presumably pensioners are just expected to not be mobile?) unlike PIP or DLA so as I often advise anyone approaching pension age who has a disability impacting on their mobility you need to make sure that you apply for PIP to try and get a mobility component because ya ain't getting one once you get your State Pension. This advice of course is useless to anyone who develops mobility needs after they reach their pension age(!) but that is the only monetary difference between them.
 

Busaholic

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It's worth noting that Attendance Allowance has been the pensioner disability benefit for a long time. I believe it traces its history back to 1975 and it will have become a pensioner only benefit in the early 1990s when Disability Living Allowance was introduced for everyone under pension age. So anyone who has reached pension age for decades and then finds need of making a claim for a disability benefit would have claimed AA even prior to the introduction of PIP to replace DLA for the 16 and over age group (in April 2013). The monetary value of the AA Low and High Rates of AA are also equivalent to the Standard and Enhanced rates of the Daily Living Component of PIP which are themselves equivalent to the Middle and High rates of DLA.

I don't disagree that the rates paid (£68.10 per week for the Middle/Standard/Lower of DLA/PIP/AA and £101.75 per week for the High/Enhanced/Higher of DLA/PIP/AA) aren't anything to write home about but there is no monetary difference between the three benefits. Obviously DLA came with a Low rate for the Care Component so a number of people who would have previously qualified missed out of that when transferred to PIP.

Plus AA has no mobility component (presumably pensioners are just expected to not be mobile?) unlike PIP or DLA so as I often advise anyone approaching pension age who has a disability impacting on their mobility you need to make sure that you apply for PIP to try and get a mobility component because ya ain't getting one once you get your State Pension. This advice of course is useless to anyone who develops mobility needs after they reach their pension age(!) but that is the only monetary difference between them.
I'm aware you're an expert on this subject and of course you're quite right in all regards. I deliberately omitted to mention that A.A. existed before etc etc because it wasn't central to my main point that the LibDems can and did collude with doing the dirty on disabled people as well if given half a chance.

Re your last sentence - I know a man younger than me, but of retirement age, who by all appearances has far fewer mobility issues than I do, and whom I happen to know had been getting Disabled Living Allowance pre retirement, then presumably PIP, and whose monthly sums from DWP are hundreds of pounds more than mine on that basis, which is irrational and, dare I say it, unfair. The problem is public ignorance, as in so many things. The number of people who say to me 'of course you must be entitled to more money, you need to look into it more' because they can't believe that an important part of the security blanket was whipped away without attendant publicity.
.
 

ainsworth74

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I'm aware you're an expert on this subject and of course you're quite right in all regards. I deliberately omitted to mention that A.A. existed before etc etc because it wasn't central to my main point that the LibDems can and did collude with doing the dirty on disabled people as well if given half a chance.
Oh absolutely but it is still not clear to me how much was the LibDems actually being in agreement and how much was them having to go along with it as the junior partner. I suspect quite a lot of the latter was going on to be honest. However given the choice between the Tories and either of the Lib Dems or Labour when it comes to disability benefits it isn't much of a choice in my view!!
Re your last sentence - I know a man younger than me, but of retirement age, who by all appearances has far fewer mobility issues than I do, and whom I happen to know had been getting Disabled Living Allowance pre retirement, then presumably PIP, and whose monthly sums from DWP are hundreds of pounds more than mine on that basis, which is irrational and, dare I say it, unfair. The problem is public ignorance, as in so many things. The number of people who say to me 'of course you must be entitled to more money, you need to look into it more' because they can't believe that an important part of the security blanket was whipped away without attendant publicity.

Absolutely. I presume the legislative intent was that these benefits are to help claimants with the "extra costs" of being disabled i.e. that they have needs in excess of someone without those health conditions/disabilities. But older people, in general, will have less mobility than someone of working age therefore it isn't an "extra cost" that they have to bear but a "fact of life". A somewhat similar concept still applies in Disability Living Allowance for children where you are, at least in part, comparing the child being claimed for to a child of a similar age without the health conditions (you can't get the Mobility component of DLA for a six year old just because they can't cross the road safely on their own, that isn't especially unusual. Your fourteen year old not being able to safely cross the road on the other hand...).

It goes back a long way this distinction. Mobility Allowance crops up in 1975 alongside Attendance Allowance but even then it was restricted to those under-65 (I'm not sure, therefore, if a woman whose pension age was of course lower could qualify despite having reached her state pension age as long as she was under-65!). It became part of Disability Living Allowance (and then PIP) so vanished as a separate benefit in the early 90s.

Perhaps in 1975 was life expectancy was much lower there was less expectation that pensioners would be fit and mobile for many years after reaching their pension age? But to have never been revisited by any government of any stripe in the intervening decades considering the number of years that someone reaching pension age now could, if they avoid ill health, could expect to be fit and mobile can be measured in decades feels deeply unfair.

Someone aged 66 who happens to develop say serious back problems meaning their mobility is ruined could never qualify for help with their new mobility needs despite many 66 year olds being as fit and mobile as people years younger and likely to remain so for many years more. Yet if their back trouble had developed twelve months previously when they were 65 they could have qualified for potentially £26.90 per week (Standard Mobility in PIP) or £71.00 per week (Enhanced Mobility) to help with the extra costs of having lost their mobility. They could also access the Motability Scheme, something that is blocked to pensioners as the qualifying criteria is Enhanced Mobility in PIP or High Rate Mobility in DLA.

Fair? Doesn't seem like it to me! But as you say the benefits system is shrouded in mystery and assumptions. Not helped of course by, in particular, Tory politicians and their friendly media outlets feeding a regular diet of how people are "living it large" (or similar) on benefits at your expense. Balderdash of course but effective. It isn't until someone comes to rely on it that they discover the safety net has more holes in it than a nice piece of Swiss cheese. Indeed it's a conversation I've had more than once with an individual who has fallen on hard times "I worked all my life and paid my stamp but you telling me that this is all I can get?" "Yes" "But I can't afford to live on just that!" "..."
 

Busaholic

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Thank you for that excellent history lesson.

As to the LibDem influence on these matters in the period during the Coalition, Norman Lamb was the Minister of Health for Care and Support at the time of the changes so will have been intimately involved with the decisions. He was a LibDem member and I remember him appearing on the BBC radio 'Any Questions' at the time and, without realising who I was listening to, assumed he was a right wing Tory! He stood for leader in 2015 but secured little backing.

However, we are where we are, and we shall have a Labour government next year. Your mention of the 1975 date reminds me that I was working as a Housing Advisor at Camden Housing Aid Centre at the time and the thrill my fellow advisors and I felt with the passing of a new Housing Act and new Rent Act that year. Both were formulated by the relatively new Labour government. If Starmer and co. achieve 10% of that radicalism I'll be pleasantly surprised, but not exactly satisfied.
 
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yorkie

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Sir Keir Starmer has suffered a major rebellion over his stance on the Israel-Gaza war, with 56 of his MPs voting for an immediate ceasefire.
Jess Phillips, Afzal Khan and Yasmin Qureshi were among shadow ministers who quit their roles to back the motion from the SNP.
Ten of the party's frontbenchers have left their jobs over the vote, including eight shadow minsters.
Good.

I'm no longer planning to vote Labour at the next election, due to Starmer's stance. Hopefully he will realise this stance is untenable before too much damage is done

I fear he knows that, as victory is almost certain, he would rather pander to right-wing types than people who he thinks will vote for Labour regardless.

Edit: I had previously felt annoyed at people trying to oppose Starmer's leadership and cause division in the party, but this issue is one that I, and no doubt others, feel very strongly on, so he really is risking a lot by taking this stance and I hope he is made to realise this is a huge mistake sooner rather than later.
 
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Cross City

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Pointless posturing by some Labour MPs this. Their stance on a ceasefire is less than worthless. They're again risking internal struggles over who is "right" than actually wanting to be in government.

That being said, they will win the next election and this is a good chance for Starmer to oust everybody who thinks a war in the middle east is more important than sorting out domestic issues or preparing themselves to govern.
 

yorkie

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Pointless posturing by some Labour MPs this. Their stance on a ceasefire is less than worthless. They're again risking internal struggles over who is "right" than actually wanting to be in government.
I would have previously agreed over other issues in which people within the party criticised Starmer. But this is different.
That being said, they will win the next election and this is a good chance for Starmer to oust everybody who thinks a war in the middle east is more important than sorting out domestic issues or preparing themselves to govern.
You are entitled to your views but the MPs are absolutely spot on; it will affect who votes for them and by taking this stance they've not just lost my vote:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67425478
...Bury resident Waheed Arshad illustrates the problem the Labour Party has by not calling for a permanent ceasefire.
He has previously voted Labour, but says Muslim voters in the area feel "taken for granted" by the party, which will impact both their voting and their enthusiasm for campaigning...
 
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Cross City

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You are entitled to your views but the MPs are absolutely spot on; it will affect who votes for them and by taking this stance they've not just lost my vote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67425478

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I agree that most of the now gone MPs are representing their constituents wishes, which is fine. But to put a war overseas, which as the opposition you have no say in and nobody cares about your stance, over wanting to be in government is completely mad.

I can't see why anybody would change their vote on this, unless you had a particular interest in the Gaza conflict, and risk another Tory government because of some weird desperation to appear morally right even when Labour's stance is irrelevant. Prioritising a war in Gaza over who you want to govern your own country is bonkers.
 

yorkie

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I agree that most of the now gone MPs are representing their constituents wishes, which is fine. But to put a war overseas, which as the opposition you have no say in and nobody cares about your stance, over wanting to be in government is completely mad.

I can't see why anybody would change their vote on this, unless you had a particular interest in the Gaza conflict, and risk another Tory government because of some weird desperation to appear morally right even when Labour's stance is irrelevant. Prioritising a war in Gaza over who you want to govern your own country is bonkers.
If you want to think I'm bonkers that is entirely your choice.

But it would cost Starmer votes if he takes a similar view that our humanitarian concerns don't count.

The idea that we shouldn't care about what happens in Gaza, and/or that it won't affect us, is a view that I would refute and I'm far from being alone in this view.
 

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Good.

I'm no longer planning to vote Labour at the next election, due to Starmer's stance. Hopefully he will realise this stance is untenable before too much damage is done

I fear he knows that, as victory is almost certain, he would rather pander to right-wing types than people who he thinks will vote for Labour regardless.

Edit: I had previously felt annoyed at people trying to oppose Starmer's leadership and cause division in the party, but this issue is one that I, and no doubt others, feel very strongly on, so he really is risking a lot by taking this stance and I hope he is made to realise this is a huge mistake sooner rather than later.
I think the fact that potentially less than a year out Labour still haven't got their game faces on and stood together speaks massive volumes. Under Starmer I don't think they are ready for government, these divisions will almost certainly run into a Labour formed government and cause chaos when trying to run the country. Just like the current government. Politics in this country is well and truly broken, we need an opposition that is focused and ready to hit the ground running. If / when Labour do I'm expecting them to hit the accelerator and instantly crash into a wall. Assuming of course that they don't snatch defeat from the jaws of victory....

Personally I will be voting purely on the basis of my local candidates, their policies and how they stand up to questioning. The time for party loyalty is over.
 

oldman

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Personally I will be voting purely on the basis of my local candidates, their policies and how they stand up to questioning. The time for party loyalty is over.
Your local candidates won't have policies, they will stand for their party and if their party forms a government, they will support it. You may think you are voting for an individual, but you will be electing a rosette.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Your local candidates won't have policies, they will stand for their party and if their party forms a government, they will support it. You may think you are voting for an individual, but you will be electing a rosette.

The fact that so many Labour MPs have defied the leadership over Gaza seems to disprove that to some extent. I think in reality, you're voting for part rosette and part individual, with the balance varying according to the individual (but to be fair, for most MPs, mostly rosette).
 

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I think the fact that potentially less than a year out Labour still haven't got their game faces on and stood together speaks massive volumes. Under Starmer I don't think they are ready for government, these divisions will almost certainly run into a Labour formed government and cause chaos when trying to run the country. Just like the current government. Politics in this country is well and truly broken, we need an opposition that is focused and ready to hit the ground running. If / when Labour do I'm expecting them to hit the accelerator and instantly crash into a wall. Assuming of course that they don't snatch defeat from the jaws of victory....

Personally I will be voting purely on the basis of my local candidates, their policies and how they stand up to questioning. The time for party loyalty is over.

Spot on.

I genuinely won’t be sorry to see the back of the current government despite my political leanings, but it’s highly unlikely that things will materially improve under Labour.

It’s not all their fault as they stand to inherit an absolute mess, however Starmer isn’t a great leader in my opinion, and nor is there any depth of talent around him. I think there’s likely to be plenty of infighting as well (in fact it looks to have started already!). Add to all of this our wonderful media, who I’m sure will waste no time stirring things up, and it’s another circus in the making.

I’d be happy to be proven wrong as we really need a competent government at this point (I’ll take any flavour within reason!), but as @Bantamzen states, politics in this country is broken.
 

nw1

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Good.

I'm no longer planning to vote Labour at the next election, due to Starmer's stance. Hopefully he will realise this stance is untenable before too much damage is done

I fear he knows that, as victory is almost certain, he would rather pander to right-wing types than people who he thinks will vote for Labour regardless.

Edit: I had previously felt annoyed at people trying to oppose Starmer's leadership and cause division in the party, but this issue is one that I, and no doubt others, feel very strongly on, so he really is risking a lot by taking this stance and I hope he is made to realise this is a huge mistake sooner rather than later.

A very unfortunate step. I too am not happy with Starmer, at all, about this. However because I dislike Sunak and all he stands for so very, very much, I will absolutely be voting (tactically in my case) for Labour in the next election.

It's of note that the UN supports a ceasefire, so it's politicians in countries such as the UK which are the outliers. I'm guessing Labour are utterly frightened of wrongful accusations of anti-semitism if they dare criticise Netanyahu or his policy - due to the allegations of anti-semitism made against a former Labour leader.

Cynically, I can see what Labour are doing generally. Sadly they have to pick up votes from the pro-Brexit populist right and thus are sacrificing their principles and being more right-wing than they should to achieve that aim, in the knowledge that most (but not all) on the left will bite their tongues and vote Labour because they dislike Sunak and the Tories so much.

I do however see that smaller left-wing parties might do very well in safe Labour seats, where there is no risk of letting the Tory in.

At the end of the day, I guess our next election has some similarities to the recent French presidential election, albeit without a candidate quite as far to the right as Le Pen. A lacklustre centrist or centre-right candidate (Starmer) versus a right-wing authoritarian with suspect views on immigration (Sunak). Or even the USA, with Starmer playing the Biden role and Sunak playing (a less extreme) Trump. Hobson's choice, but one hopes, like they did in France and the USA, people will pick the former as the least-worst option.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The fact that so many Labour MPs have defied the leadership over Gaza seems to disprove that to some extent. I think in reality, you're voting for part rosette and part individual, with the balance varying according to the individual (but to be fair, for most MPs, mostly rosette).

Voting for an individual might come into play if you don't obviously prefer one party over another. If you do, then it has to be rosette, for better or worse.
 
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DustyBin

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Sadly they have to pick up votes from the anti-Palestine, pro-Brexit populist right

Is this is a large group of voters? What about the the pro-Hamas left? I'd suggest that both are a small minority on the extremities of their respective political persuasions....
 

nw1

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Is this is a large group of voters? What about the the pro-Hamas left? I'd suggest that both are a small minority on the extremities of their respective political persuasions....

Yeah, ok sorry, the Palestine issue is probably not the biggest consideration for that bloc, and fear of being wrongly labelled anti-semitic by opponents (given Labour have had that allegation made against them in the past) is likely the bigger driver to Starmer's decisions on this matter. But I was trying to emphasise the fact that Labour appear to be taking a more conservative, right-wing attitude to various issues because they have to capture certain voters to win - whereas they need not appeal to the left so much as they are going to get (most of) their vote anyway.
 

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Your local candidates won't have policies, they will stand for their party and if their party forms a government, they will support it. You may think you are voting for an individual, but you will be electing a rosette.
If they are good candidates they will have their views on local and wider issues, if they just tow the party line then they are not good candiidates.
 

nw1

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If they are good candidates they will have their views on local and wider issues, if they just tow the party line then they are not good candiidates.

From the way that the Tories behaved in 2019 post election, you could probably conclude that the vast majority of Tories elected in 2019 were not good candidates ;)
 

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Yeah, ok sorry, the Palestine issue is probably not the biggest consideration for that bloc, and fear of being wrongly labelled anti-semitic by opponents (given Labour have had that allegation made against them in the past) is likely the bigger driver to Starmer's decisions on this matter. But I was trying to emphasise the fact that Labour appear to be taking a more conservative, right-wing attitude to various issues because they have to capture certain voters to win - whereas they need not appeal to the left so much as they are going to get (most of) their vote anyway.

I do get the point you were trying to make to be fair. :)
 

oldman

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If they are good candidates they will have their views on local and wider issues, if they just tow the party line then they are not good candiidates.
If you don't care which party forms the government, then by all means do it your way. I do care, and I know we need parties that can form a government.
 

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If you don't care which party forms the government, then by all means do it your way. I do care, and I know we need parties that can form a government.
I care who represents my constituency. If they listen to their constituents, they are more likely to represent them, help drive party policy, stand up and be heard in the House, and most importantly influence other politicians around them.

Good politicians don't just tow the HQ line, they challenge it and influence. I vote for the best one in the race. If you vote based on the colour of their tie that's up to you, but you really aren't voting for anyone other than the MP for your constituency. So I think it's best to vote for the best one regardless of party. If everyone did that then the best party for the job would get in, because the best party would stand the best candidates up.
 
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