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Keir Starmer and the Labour Party

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DarloRich

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The present problem for Labour is that it has no exciting vision of the future.

The Tories Levelling Up agenda for all its faults at least suggests they have a vision for left behind parts of the country.

Is that the plan that gives more money to fraudsters than northern communities?

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Labour had quite an exciting vision of the future at the last election, unfortunately exciting bold policies tend to be a bit expensive and need to be paid for (by us!)

No: labour under corbyn had an all you can eat buffet of policy which no one wanted to eat!
 
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dosxuk

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Surely that leaves the door open for someone like Jeremy Hunt instead, since he re-imagined himself as the sensible one. And considering Johnson may soon be going, I don't think Starmer actually stands a chance if Hunt replaces Johnson.

Remember Hunt managed to upset all the teachers and all the doctors in his stints at education and health, and is the architect behind the highly successful local TV project. While he likes to portray himself as a steady pair of hands compared to Boris, he doesn't rate that highly with the general public compared to some of the current cabinet.

By pushing out all the moderate voices from the party, they've bet the house on the current lot staying popular enough to remain unchallenged. That's currently paying off for Boris, as if there was even one credible candidate in the higher tiers of the party he'd have been out the door months ago. But with the tide now turned against him, there's not much talent for the rest of the party to try and cling to.

Where Labour actually stand on most policies right now is pretty unclear. Some stuff they seem to back the Tories on unquestioningly, others they seem to disagree for the sake of disagreeing. Opposition means you don't have to have the answers, just the questions, but come election time that gets tricky. But at the moment it seems to be working - but not because they're now popular, but because Boris isn't.
 

LittleAH

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Electorate dont see that - they just see Ministers talking about levelling up and splashing some cash about - the fact it has been announced many times before is irrelevant as long as something happens

They dont see Labour setting out anything positive
Really? Just look at the news headlines. Nandy's speech got hundreds of thousands of views. Saying something over and over again doesn't mean it's true. And all the electorate will need to do is draw upon their own circumstances.
 

brad465

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Where Labour actually stand on most policies right now is pretty unclear. Some stuff they seem to back the Tories on unquestioningly, others they seem to disagree for the sake of disagreeing. Opposition means you don't have to have the answers, just the questions, but come election time that gets tricky. But at the moment it seems to be working - but not because they're now popular, but because Boris isn't.
On hot issues where they stand should be very clear, whether one agrees with their stance or not. We know what their stance has been around covid measures, and on the cost of living they've pushed for a VAT cut and oil and gas firm windfall tax. They are coming up with policies elsewhere, but with the media landscape largely against them it's not always easy to hear about it, and there's only so much time Starmer and his ministers can dedicate to writing in subject newspapers.
 

DelayRepay

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Electorate dont see that - they just see Ministers talking about levelling up and splashing some cash about - the fact it has been announced many times before is irrelevant as long as something happens

They dont see Labour setting out anything positive
'Levelling Up' is nothing new, and I think most voters are sensible enough to realise that. The last attempt was called 'Northern Powerhouse' if I recall correctly. I think most will realise that the Conservatives have been in power for over a decade now; the need to Level Up is a product of that party's making.

But, I do agree with the second point. We hear a lot from Labour about what we shouldn't do, but not enough about what we should do. How would Labour tackle the NHS backlog? How would they deal with the Social Care situation? How would they fund it, if not though National Insurance or other tax rises? These are the issues that will be important at the next election, not Covid rules or Brexit.
 

deltic

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Really? Just look at the news headlines. Nandy's speech got hundreds of thousands of views. Saying something over and over again doesn't mean it's true. And all the electorate will need to do is draw upon their own circumstances.

The electorate is 40m - a few hundred thousand views of a politician that the majority of the electorate have never heard of (I must admit I was surprised that according to YouGov 42% of people recogonised her name) is not going to cut it.

It is notable that in that YouGov listing the best known Labour politicians are still mainly from the Blair/Brown era which is now 12 years ago.
 

MattRat

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The electorate is 40m - a few hundred thousand views of a politician that the majority of the electorate have never heard of (I must admit I was surprised that according to YouGov 42% of people recogonised her name) is not going to cut it.

It is notable that in that YouGov listing the best known Labour politicians are still mainly from the Blair/Brown era which is now 12 years ago.
It'll cut it if the party members know them. And that goes for either party. From there, winning a party leadership contest would bring them into the public spotlight.

Not saying they'd run to be party leader, just pointing out how one would go about becoming well known.
 

nw1

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Surely that leaves the door open for someone like Jeremy Hunt instead, since he re-imagined himself as the sensible one. And considering Johnson may soon be going, I don't think Starmer actually stands a chance if Hunt replaces Johnson.

Not so sure about that. Tories are significantly more likely to win under Hunt, it's true, but I still think it'll be close. With Johnson (or Raab, Patel, etc) the Tories will surely lose but even with a more middle-of-the-road leader like Hunt, I suspect many people will blame the coming austerity on the incumbent party.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Labour had quite an exciting vision of the future at the last election, unfortunately exciting bold policies tend to be a bit expensive and need to be paid for (by us!)

I don't think the Tories can at all claim to be the party of economic prudence right now.
 
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nw1

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Somewhat akin to Michael Foot in 1983 with a similar outcome ;)

And of course in both cases the Tory option was particularly right-wing. It's unfortunate that the most left-wing (not necessarily bad IMO, but I can see why they wouldn't appeal to some of the electorate) versions of Labour co-incided with two of the three elections (1983, 1987, 2019) at which the Tories were most 'hard right'.

1987 had more moderate Labour against a particularly right-wing Tory party, but these were economic good times for some (not all) so I suspect Thatcher was rewarded for that, despite her government's very questionable attitude towards sexuality matters, amongst other things. I'd guess 1987 had a marked generation gap in voter share, with Thatcher significantly less popular with the younger generations of voting age.
 
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daodao

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despite her government's very questionable attitude towards sexuality matters
Really? Margaret Thatcher (and Theresa May) had sound moral values, unlike David Cameron or Bojo. John Major was exposed as a hypocrite when his affair with Edwina Currie came to light.

The poll tax was Margaret Thatcher's undoing.
 
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nw1

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Really? Margaret Thatcher (and Theresa May) had sound moral values, unlike David Cameron or Bojo. John Major was exposed as a hypocrite when his affair with Edwina Currie (née Cohen) came to light.

The poll tax was Margaret Thatcher's undoing.

I mean Section 28, specifically.
 

LittleAH

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The electorate is 40m - a few hundred thousand views of a politician that the majority of the electorate have never heard of (I must admit I was surprised that according to YouGov 42% of people recogonised her name) is not going to cut it.

It is notable that in that YouGov listing the best known Labour politicians are still mainly from the Blair/Brown era which is now 12 years ago.
Really? That's just on one platform - views of 1million plus over all platforms after having a gander. Similar to Peter Stevanovic's video which has been seen over 40 million time debunking Boris Johnson - it has cut through.

That's why just saying 'levelling up' doesn't work. Action needs to be seen and this government has provided the square root of sod all.
 

Cowley

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Really? Margaret Thatcher (and Theresa May) had sound moral values, unlike David Cameron or Bojo. John Major was exposed as a hypocrite when his affair with Edwina Currie (née Cohen) came to light.

The poll tax was Margaret Thatcher's undoing.

Just out of curiosity, why have you singled out Edwina Currie for her surname but not Margaret Thatcher (née Roberts) or Theresa May (née Brasier)?
 

daodao

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Just out of curiosity, why have you singled out Edwina Currie for her surname but not Margaret Thatcher (née Roberts) or Theresa May (née Brasier)?
It was a copy and paste from the first line of the article about her in Wikipedia, which I looked up to check the spelling of her married surname. I have edited my post.
 

Cowley

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It was a copy and paste from the first line of the article about her in Wikipedia, which I looked up to check the spelling of her married surname. I have edited my post.
Fair enough and thanks for doing that. :)
 

Kite159

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Really? That's just on one platform - views of 1million plus over all platforms after having a gander. Similar to Peter Stevanovic's video which has been seen over 40 million time debunking Boris Johnson - it has cut through.

That's why just saying 'levelling up' doesn't work. Action needs to be seen and this government has provided the square root of sod all.
Ah the video which has started to be watched '40 million times'. I wonder how many of those 40 million views got to the end and how many were autoplays where they were stopped after a few seconds when people posted it on social media.

Viewing stats can be misleading.
 

cactustwirly

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I think a lot of the problem is Labour is influenced by left wing unions which no longer represent the working class.
Since the shift away from heavy blue collar jobs, most working class people are more likely to be in white collar jobs such as offices, shops, restaurants etc. Which aren't represented by unions
 

MattRat

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I think a lot of the problem is Labour is influenced by left wing unions which no longer represent the working class.
Since the shift away from heavy blue collar jobs, most working class people are more likely to be in white collar jobs such as offices, shops, restaurants etc. Which aren't represented by unions
Except most who voted Tory after being Labour, used to be blue collar workers.
 

daodao

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I think a lot of the problem is Labour is influenced by left wing unions which no longer represent the working class.
Since the shift away from heavy blue collar jobs, most working class people are more likely to be in white collar jobs such as offices, shops, restaurants etc. Which aren't represented by unions
Should Starmer be leading the Labour party into the next general election, the press/media are likely to focus on his Trotskyite past (he was formerly the editor of the radical magazine Socialist Alternatives), and that he would be in the pocket of Nicola Sturgeon (the most prominent internal enemy of the UK).
 

birchesgreen

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Should Starmer be leading the Labour party into the next general election, the press/media are likely to focus on his Trotskyite past (he was formerly the editor of the radical magazine Socialist Alternatives), and that he would be in the pocket of Nicola Sturgeon (the most prominent internal enemy of the UK).
What he is too left-wing now? I thought he was a blue Labour B-LIAR-ite? All gets very confusing.
 

brad465

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Should Starmer be leading the Labour party into the next general election, the press/media are likely to focus on his Trotskyite past (he was formerly the editor of the radical magazine Socialist Alternatives), and that he would be in the pocket of Nicola Sturgeon (the most prominent internal enemy of the UK).
What he is too left-wing now? I thought he was a blue Labour B-LIAR-ite? All gets very confusing.
Starmer is left wing, not as much as Corbyn, but more than Blair. However, he is also pragmatic, thus adopts more centrist policies as he knows his own views entirely would not garner enough support to win.
 

nw1

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What he is too left-wing now? I thought he was a blue Labour B-LIAR-ite? All gets very confusing.

I think the point is "Starmer used to be a hard-left communist, or something, in 1978, or something, so clearly he's unfit to lead the country now, or something" in the eye of the right-wing media.

By contrast Tories were good boys when they were young, just spouting Thatcherite c**p and brown-nosing Lady T at university debating chambers (this is actual personal experience of mine with a current semi-prominent Tory) so they are of course perfectly alright then.
 
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Typhoon

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Starmer is left wing, not as much as Corbyn, but more than Blair. However, he is also pragmatic, thus adopts more centrist policies as he knows his own views entirely would not garner enough support to win.
Starmer also has the advantage of not looking left wing. The likes of Corbyn, Benn and Foot could be passed off as 'loony left' on appearance. Starmer looks what he is - a dull lawyer; rather like John Smith in his time (but without the accent). I don't think attributing the label 'Leftie' to Starmer will influence many more than the Rees Mogg Fan Club.
 

edwin_m

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By contrast Tories were good boys when they were young, just spouting Thatcherite c**p and brown-nosing Lady T at university debating chambers (this is actual personal experience of mine with a current semi-prominent Tory) so they are of course perfectly alright then.
As a student I also had some exposure to those of similar age and background to Johnson. The sense of entitlement and lack of consideration displayed by some of them was eye-opening. I remember a colleague of mine from the north-east commenting that when the lads from a mining community smashed up a pub the police came down hard on them, but when it was students from Durham they escaped with a ticking off.
 

DynamicSpirit

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I think the point is "Starmer used to be a hard-left communist, or something, in 1978, or something, so clearly he's unfit to lead the country now, or something" in the eye of the right-wing media.

Do you have any actual evidence that the media are presenting Starmer as a hard-left person, unfit to lead the country? Any recent mainstream newspaper reports you could cite that present Starmer in that way? I certainly haven't seen anything like that in what I've read - and I do make an effort to read around various different papers.
 
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