Juxtaposed Controls

[SynthD]

German staff would not be required in St Pancras. Schengen controls are done by French staff.

Does that satisfy all Schengen countries, or only Belgium and the Netherlands?

 

[The exile]

There are very few of them (Croatia/Serbia currently nothing) and probably none with 900 pax on them. Sit at the border while the checks are done I expect.

Just done the RO / HU crossing. România is currently in Schengen as far as airports are concerned but outside Schengen for land borders. Passports / ID cards checked (but not stamped unfortunately). Few passengers so all done before the railway operations were completed. MAV officials seemed to be carrying out a detailed inspection of every element of the CFR coaches before letting them onto Hungarian metals by- does that say something about Romanian maintenance regimes?

 

[signed]

Does that satisfy all Schengen countries, or only Belgium and the Netherlands?

You enter the French territory first, so French controls are the only controls that can legally be placed on STP, destination is irrelevant.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 May 2024 ==

forgetting about the space issues at St Pancras for a minute, would be for all border formalities to be done at the UK end. But the lack of space at St Pancras makes that impossible.

And people would find no value in taking any such services when you have the same chaos at airports, juxtaposed controls are the way + the UK would never agree to that, a stranded train, and they have a huge issue to deal with.

I had an idea of why not do the UK border control on the train while it's running, you could do that swiftly and deboard anyone who isn't welcome at Lille or before, the enclosed space means no-one can escape/get sneaky in the UK and you don't need any of the infrastructure at stations, segregate Schengen/Non-Schengen final destinations (like it's done in Paris-Lille) and you're done.

 

[johncrossley]

As long as border controls are required, it would be better to just have a frequent passenger version of the car shuttle with express trains connecting at either end. Basically like how it was when there was no tunnel. This means that the rail companies don't have to worry about passport control.

 

[signed]

it would be better to just have a frequent passenger version of the car shuttle with express trains connecting at either end

This would lead to absolutely no value for passengers, especially business ones (one of the advantages of ES is that it takes 2h to go between STP and Paris, if you double that, you'll lose passengers and if you make that massively cheaper you'll lose all premium passengers)

It would only benefit the railway and require massive changes to erect a suitable passenger station at Folkestone, for Calais, Calais Fréthun could be used.

 

[DanNCL]

And people would find no value in taking any such services when you have the same chaos at airports, juxtaposed controls are the way + the UK would never agree to that, a stranded train, and they have a huge issue to deal with.

Its already an issue when a continent bound Eurostar is stranded this side of the channel as those passengers will have legally exited the UK and many will have entry stamps for Schengen despite not actually entering. And the other way round, if a UK bound train is stranded before the tunnel there’s a problem as UK citizens will already have been stamped out of Schengen.

It’s one of those things that just has to be put up with for as long as the UK stays out of Schengen.

 

[johncrossley]

This would lead to absolutely no value for passengers, especially business ones (one of the advantages of ES is that it takes 2h to go between STP and Paris, if you double that, you'll lose passengers and if you make that massively cheaper you'll lose all premium passengers)

It would only benefit the railway and require massive changes to erect a suitable passenger station at Folkestone, for Calais, Calais Fréthun could be used.

Time would be saved by no longer needing a check in and turn up and ride would become possible again, like it was before Eurostar. Nowadays, there is effectively no Eurostar service unless you book well in advance. You wouldn't have massive duplication of domestic and international services so you could run hourly or half hourly trains Calais to Lille, Brussels and Paris plus anywhere else you wanted to run a direct train to.

 

[BahrainLad]

Of course Eurostar offers a turn up and go service, you just need to pay for it. Arrive at St Pancras, drop £275, go through the BP gates up to 15 minutes before departure, board train. Even if the train is full E* will guarantee you’ll be able to travel the same day.

 

[johncrossley]

Of course Eurostar offers a turn up and go service, you just need to pay for it. Arrive at St Pancras, drop £275, go through the BP gates up to 15 minutes before departure, board train. Even if the train is full E* will guarantee you’ll be able to travel the same day.

That's the same as no service for 99% of the public.

 

[BahrainLad]

99% of the public don’t want or need a “turn up and go” service to Paris, Brussels etc. Those that do, are prepared to pay.

 

[johncrossley]

99% of the public don’t want or need a “turn up and go” service to Paris, Brussels etc. Those that do, are prepared to pay.

We had an affordable turn up and go service before Eurostar came along. On many other long distance domestic and international rail routes in Europe, turn up and go is widely available and used.

 

[SynthD]

We had an affordable turn up and go service before Eurostar came along.

The boat trains?

We aren’t in Schengen, comparisons should be with our borders.

 

[johncrossley]

The boat trains?

We aren’t in Schengen, comparisons should be with our borders.

You didn't have to use the specific boat trains, you could use any relevant ferry or hovercraft service, plus any connecting trains. Travel was very flexible. A modern day version replacing the ferries with a frequent passenger shuttle would be quicker as there are now high speed lines either side of the border.

 

[BahrainLad]

On many other long distance domestic and international rail routes in Europe, turn up and go is widely available and used.

Where would that be? Off to top of my head long distance domestic routes in France (TGV), Spain (AVE) and Germany (ICE) all have some or all of 1. Compulsory seat reservations 2. Seat reservations advisable 3. Dynamic pricing with busy trains at short notice costing £££, so I would dispute that TU&G is “widely available and used.”

 

[johncrossley]

Where would that be? Off to top of my head long distance domestic routes in France (TGV), Spain (AVE) and Germany (ICE) all have some or all of 1. Compulsory seat reservations 2. Seat reservations advisable 3. Dynamic pricing with busy trains at short notice costing £££, so I would dispute that TU&G is “widely available and used.”

Reservation only is entirely compatible with turn up and go. Looking at the SNCB international website, the next train from Paris to Lyon costs 67.50 EUR second class.

 

[BahrainLad]

And that €67.50 is a limited availability fare at 6am. All it says is that the train is empty. Turn up and want to go on a Friday afternoon in August and it will cost you several multiples of that if you can even get a seat.

Incidentally, if you are using Paris to Lyon as an example the 0900, 1000, 1100, 1152 and 1354 TGVs tomorrow are entirely sold out, so what would you do if you just turned up at GdL at 0845 wanting to travel? ‍♂️

 

[SynthD]

You didn't have to use the specific boat trains, you could use any relevant ferry or hovercraft service, plus any connecting trains. Travel was very flexible. A modern day version replacing the ferries with a frequent passenger shuttle would be quicker as there are now high speed lines either side of the border.

No it wouldn't, the government would enforce the same lengthy controls as we see in airports and St P. You're cutting and pasting bits from the 80s into the 2020s.

 

[signed]

+ It would be masssively disruptive if ANYTHING goes wrong in the tunnel (massive traffic bottleneck which we don't have currently), and, since the Channel Tunnel is a political project, there is no way that either France, Belgium, The Netherlands or the UK would agree to discontinue direct service between the capitals.

 

[johncrossley]

And that €67.50 is a limited availability fare at 6am. All it says is that the train is empty. Turn up and want to go on a Friday afternoon in August and it will cost you several multiples of that if you can even get a seat.

Incidentally, if you are using Paris to Lyon as an example the 0900, 1000, 1100, 1152 and 1354 TGVs tomorrow are entirely sold out, so what would you do if you just turned up at GdL at 0845 wanting to travel? ‍♂️

If the train is sold out then fair enough, who wants to stand up on a long distance train for two hours? The situation with Eurostar is different. Even where there are seats they are charging silly money.

 

[BahrainLad]

It may be “silly money” by your definition but it’s a more expensive operation not least due to the tunnel charges, has huge debts due to Covid, runs without a subsidy afaik and is currently experiencing huge demand (the summer, the Olympics, American tourists due to the weak GBP etc etc). Even with this pricing however it remains extremely competitive with the alternatives.

 

[signed]

The situation with Eurostar is different. Even where there are seats they are charging silly money.

Eurostar is the premium service on the route (fastest, most direct), so that's unfortunately expected (+ the lack of any competition)

But when you consider what comes into taking a Ryanair flight from Paris (when it operates to London), it adds up quickly

• Paris-Beauvais : 15€
• Flight : let's say 50€ next-day
• Stansted - London : 25 pounds

It is really not that far from the usual 70 to 80€ that can be seen for the ungodly hour service on E* (booked a week in advance, like the 7am or 9pm service)

And even if you choose Easyjet from Paris CDG to Luton :

• Going to CDG : 12€
• Flight : 200€ for tomorrow
• Luton Express : 25-30 quids

For someone who doesn't want to endure the chaos at London Airports + having to do 45+35 min airports' connection (half of the E* travel time), the €325 fare for most trains in Standard Premier tomorrow becomes quite enticing. Some services tomorrow even have Standard left at €200 which is only the price of the flight.

 

[johncrossley]

Eurostar is the premium service on the route (fastest, most direct), so that's unfortunately expected (+ the lack of any competition)

But when you consider what comes into taking a Ryanair flight from Paris (when it operates to London), it adds up quickly

• Paris-Beauvais : 15€
• Flight : let's say 50€ next-day
• Stansted - London : 25 pounds

It is really not that far from the usual 70 to 80€ that can be seen for the ungodly hour service on E* (booked a week in advance, like the 7am or 9pm service)

And even if you choose Easyjet from Paris CDG to Luton :

• Going to CDG : 12€
• Flight : 200€ for tomorrow
• Luton Express : 25-30 quids

For someone who doesn't want to endure the chaos at London Airports + having to do 45+35 min rail connection (half of the E* price), the €325 fare for most trains in Standard Premier tomorrow becomes quite enticing. Some service even have Standard left at €200 which is only the price of the flight.

True, air travel is usually expensive at short notice as well. But if you look at routes where there is no Eurostar competition, for example London to Dublin, affordable fares are available within a few days notice. For example, Ryanair have 8 flights from Stansted to Dublin on Saturday, the maximum fare is £69, the lowest is £13. You usually can't get a cheap fare on Eurostar even at one week notice. Without Eurostar we would have a lot more choice on the London to Paris air route. There is no affordable way of getting from London to Brussels except coach. Bizarrely, however, it is usually cheaper to get from Manchester or Edinburgh to Brussels at one week notice than from London to Brussels.

 

[signed]

Paris to London is very business-heavy route, even more with businesses basing their EU operations out of Paris, and business travellers can pay. Not even Ryanair wants to compete into that route.

Slots at London airports are few, far between and very very expensive, Heathrow is at capacity, Gatwick is single-runway... London airports are overflowing and there are not that many airlines that can be moved from the above to STN, SEN or LTN. And Brexit border control issues don't have helped either.

There is a big capacity issue in that link.

I don't think removing the Eurostar would do absolutely anything if not diminish capacity even more and racking up air prices even more.

Compared to that, Dublin, Manchester, Edinbrugh are way more leisure-oriented and don’t have to carry as much business passengers so prices are adapted to that budget-conscious class of travellers

 

[BahrainLad]

Just as a point of info…in July Eurostar are operating 17 trains a day from London to Paris, with e320s that’s 15,334 seats per day, or 83 A320s (186 seats in the Easyjet configuration).

that’s a *lot* of airport slots the airlines would rather use for longhaul flights.

 

[rvdborgt]

Incidentally, if you are using Paris to Lyon as an example the 0900, 1000, 1100, 1152 and 1354 TGVs tomorrow are entirely sold out, so what would you do if you just turned up at GdL at 0845 wanting to travel? ‍♂️

The 9:00 departure has a bit of availability. But otherwise, hurry to Paris-Bercy and travel via Vichy. Or entirely by TER also from Bercy, although that's currently a bit hampered by engineering works.