Just how long are driver/guard breaks?

[Dieseldriver]

Is that minimum pnb time?

Say for instance at a company the minimum pnb length was 40 mins but on a diagram the pnb was 1hr but the train is 30 mins late.

Is the driver entitled to his 40 mins break or full 1 hour? Or must take his train over ontime with only 30 mins pnb?

The Driver is entitled to the legal minimum. So if the minimum PNB at that TOC is 40 minutes, the Driver will take 40 minutes even if they were (for example) diagrammed an hours PNB.

 

[Sunset route]

Yes.

• 'Hidden 18' regulations
• Employment Law
• T&Cs
• Safety Critical / RSSB rules

It can get quite complex.

As I stated our minimum PNB requirement is 30 minutes. That is affected by diagram length, diagram criteria, driving hours etc etc. At its extreme, 30 minute break is the absolute minimum on a 9hr 15/30 minute turn. A lot of diagrams that is all you get.

Are the infamous Lord Justice Hidden recommendation 18 page 168 of the report.

18. BR shall ensure that overtime is monitored so that no individual is working excessive levels of overtime.

There is nothing more to it than that, no maximum amount of days worked or hours in a day worked, no minimum break within the shift and no minimum rest between shifts quoted. It has spun an whole industry of myths and false quotes from Managers, HR departments, rosters, staff and union reps alike.

 

[Bromley boy]

You are entitled to the break shown on the diagram. If it shows 30 minutes then that is your entitlement exclusive of walking time etc.

At my place we are entitled to, and required to take, 30 minutes PN.

Most diagrams will have a longer break than this, typically one hour. If disruption occurs which reduces your break to 30 mins it's tough luck (this is 30 mins in the room, not including walking time).

 

[ComUtoR]

It has spun an whole industry of myths and false quotes from Managers, HR departments, rosters, staff and union reps alike.

What the fork and spoon !

It's always been explained to me as a whole bunch of regulations as set out in the report. Including the bits you mentioned.

Anywhere I can read this report for myself ?

 

[tiptoptaff]

What the fork and spoon !

It's always been explained to me as a whole bunch of regulations as set out in the report. Including the bits you mentioned.

Anywhere I can read this report for myself ?

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoT_Hidden001.pdf

 

[Bromley boy]

Are the infamous Lord Justice Hidden recommendation 18 page 168 of the report.

18. BR shall ensure that overtime is monitored so that no individual is working excessive levels of overtime.

There is nothing more to it than that, no maximum amount of days worked or hours in a day worked, no minimum break within the shift and no minimum rest between shifts quoted. It has spun an whole industry of myths and false quotes from Managers, HR departments, rosters, staff and union reps alike.

I think it's quite wrong to say it's "spun a whole industry of myths and false quotes". The Hidden Report was recommending BR/the industry as a whole impose limits on overtime, which was duly done. The linked RSSB doc on fatigue management gives an indication (the doc itself is out of date but the description of what happened as a result of hidden is accurate):

https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/standards/RS504 Iss 1.pdf

The below is from paragraph 1.3 (my bold):

As a direct consequence of the Clapham Inquiry, industry adopted what became know as the ‘Hidden Limits’ on working time which were included in an appendix to Railway Group Standard GH/RT4004
(now withdrawn) (see Appendix 1). The limits were generic (eg not speci c to any particular group of safety critical workers) and re ected what was achievable in operational terms at the time, based on expert opinion and agreed good practice. Although not mandatory, they were recommendations to assist IMs and RUs comply with GH/RT4004 and Regulation 4 of The Railways (Safety Critical Work) Regulations, 19941.

Appendix 1 then goss on to spell out the 1994 Hidden limits that were agreed as a result of the Report's recommendations, more or less as we know them today - indeed at my TOC these are taught as part of the drivers' rules course - if we breached them we would be subject to disciplinary action. Note that, while it's true to say these limits are not contained in the Hidden Report itself, they are the standard practice adopted by the industry as a direct result of the recommendations of the Hidden enquiry:

1. No more than 12 hours to be worked per turn of duty.
2. No more than 72 hours to be worked per calendar week (Sunday to Saturday).
3. A minimum rest period of 12 hours between booking off from a turn of duty to booking on for the next turn. This may be reduced to eight hours at the weekly shift changeover, in the case of staff working a shift pattern which rotates or alternates on a weekly basis.
4. No more than 13 turns of duty to be worked in any 14 day period.
5. For Signalling and Telecommunications Testing Staff, a maximum of 23 turns duty in any two consecutive 14 days periods.

 

[donpoku]

I think it's quite wrong to say it's "spun a whole industry of myths and false quotes". The Hidden Report was recommending BR/the industry as a whole impose limits on overtime, which was duly done. The linked RSSB doc on fatigue management gives an indication (the doc itself is out of date but the description of what happened as a result of hidden is accurate):

https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/standards/RS504 Iss 1.pdf

The below is from paragraph 1.3 (my bold):



Appendix 1 then goss on to spell out the 1994 Hidden limits that were agreed as a result of the Report's recommendations, more or less as we know them today - indeed at my TOC these are taught as part of the drivers' rules course - if we breached them we would be subject to disciplinary action. Note that, while it's true to say these limits are not contained in the Hidden Report itself, they are the standard practice adopted by the industry as a direct result of the recommendations of the Hidden enquiry:

Spot on.

Sent from my LG-H850 using Tapatalk

 

[Sunset route]

I think it's quite wrong to say it's "spun a whole industry of myths and false quotes". The Hidden Report was recommending BR/the industry as a whole impose limits on overtime, which was duly done. The linked RSSB doc on fatigue management gives an indication (the doc itself is out of date but the description of what happened as a result of hidden is accurate):

https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/standards/RS504 Iss 1.pdf

The below is from paragraph 1.3 (my bold):



Appendix 1 then goss on to spell out the 1994 Hidden limits that were agreed as a result of the Report's recommendations, more or less as we know them today - indeed at my TOC these are taught as part of the drivers' rules course - if we breached them we would be subject to disciplinary action. Note that, while it's true to say these limits are not contained in the Hidden Report itself, they are the standard practice adopted by the industry as a direct result of the recommendations of the Hidden enquiry:

I still stand by what I say. As a rep for nearly 10 years I had many Roster departments and to a lesser extent managers and HR quoting Hidden without actually knowing what it was. It has grown into an umbrella for all that followed, of which most come under the working time directives and broader employment laws.

I know way back when the 1994 signallers agreement came in, the mangers were using so called regulations to suit themselves and as a young lad there was no way of knowing how and what they were applying was correct or incorrect (no internet, smartphones or google back then). It wasn't until the 2001 signallers agreement came out which included the NRP national roster principles did we have a written guide to what limits applied to the grade.

But getting back to the original question there is still nothing written within Hidden or other regulations that it spun (that I can find) that define the length of a meal/rest break.

There 20minutes minimum statutory break on any working day longer than 6hrs. Although section 8 of the WTR regulations do provide for additional breaks separate to the above if work is monotonous or the work rate is predetermined (no length stipulated).

 

[Bromley boy]

I still stand by what I say. As a rep for nearly 10 years I had many Roster departments and to a lesser extent managers and HR quoting Hidden without actually knowing what it was. It has grown into an umbrella for all that followed, of which most come under the working time directives and broader employment laws.

I know way back when the 1994 signallers agreement came in, the mangers were using so called regulations to suit themselves and as a young lad there was no way of knowing how and what they were applying was correct or incorrect (no internet, smartphones or google back then). It wasn't until the 2001 signallers agreement came out which included the NRP national roster principles did we have a written guide to what limits applied to the grade.

But getting back to the original question there is still nothing written within Hidden or other regulations that it spun (that I can find) that define the length of a meal/rest break.

There 20minutes minimum statutory break on any working day longer than 6hrs. Although section 8 of the WTR regulations do provide for additional breaks separate to the above if work is monotonous or the work rate is predetermined (no length stipulated).

I see what you are saying, personally I would still put it slightly differently to your original post and say the fundamental Hidden regs themselves are generally well known by both TOC/NR, union and staff - notwithstanding that some individuals may misunderstand (although that's quite worrying!).

However the rules are a very low base by today's standards (thankfully), most of the controversy/misunderstandings at my place seem to come in around Ts and Cs over and above Hidden including things like the WTD, local agreements etc.

 

[Sunset route]

I see what you are saying, personally I would still put it slightly differently to your original post and say the fundamental Hidden regs themselves are generally well known by both TOC/NR, union and staff - notwithstanding that some individuals may misunderstand (although that's quite worrying!).

However the rules are a very low base by today's standards (thankfully), most of the controversy/misunderstandings at my place seem to come in around Ts and Cs over and above Hidden including things like the WTD, local agreements etc.

It maybe we are looking at the same thing based on our own personal experiences within the industry, which didn't help that we were split up and privatised into little sections just as the industry started to assimilate Hidden 18 into working guidelines for signalman/ler restructuring followed by the drivers restructuring then station/platform grade restructuring whereby the basic elements become the cornerstone of most of our T/Cs.

Our rest periods beyond the statuary law I believe are all down to the T/Cs within our relevant TOC/FOC, RT/NR and IFCs (I don't believe that the IFC T/Cs have been harmonised when NR took them over).

Any way I think I've taken this a bit beyond the oringinal question (what thread doesn't in this forum lol). But at least everyone learns something from such threads.

 

[Bromley boy]

It maybe we are looking at the same thing based on our own personal experiences within the industry, which didn't help that we were split up and privatised into little sections just as the industry started to assimilate Hidden 18 into working guidelines for signalman/ler restructuring followed by the drivers restructuring then station/platform grade restructuring whereby the basic elements become the cornerstone of most of our T/Cs.

Our rest periods beyond the statuary law I believe are all down to the T/Cs within our relevant TOC/FOC, RT/NR and IFCs (I don't believe that the IFC T/Cs have been harmonised when NR took them over).

Any way I think I've taken this a bit beyond the oringinal question (what thread doesn't in this forum lol). But at least everyone learns something from such threads.

Rest periods beyond the minimums are one big mess! Fully agreed - an interesting discussion nevertheless.

 

[Sunset route]

Rest periods beyond the minimums are one big mess! Fully agreed - an interesting discussion nevertheless.

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