Just how hard is it to drive a train

[Juniper Driver]

Driving the train is just one factor of being a driver.There are other factors and situations to deal with.

 

[Panupreset]

A trainer once said to me 'we pay you for what you know not what do'. One moment your having a good day and then something out of course happens and you have to react, sometimes very quickly, in the correct way. Aside from the skill of driving the train itself, it's the ability to apply the rules correctly when things go wrong that is part of the skill of being a driver. How often do things go wrong? That probably depends on what you drive and where you drive it.

Train driving is definitely one of those jobs that is all about experience. You might say you start with a bucket full of luck and and empty bucket of experience. The aim is to fill the experience bucket before the luck one empties. The moment you start to feel comfortable you can guarantee something will give you a fright with the potential to bite your backside big time. One slip of concentration and you can make all manner of mistakes. You never get a second go a stopping properly in a station or at a red. You can't correct the spelling mistake and send it to the printer again in this job.

The biggest challenge as has been touched on is shift work. If you are a train sim enthusiast try getting up at 3am, go for a drive in the car for half an hour. Then switch your pc on and drive on your simulator all morning until lunch time. You can have one 40 minute break and you can't press pause to go to the toilet! I am not having a dig at you guys, just go try it and see what it's like.

 

[ComUtoR]

I have played many simulations on computer/ipad (which of course I appreciate does not come even close to reality) but I do also find coming to a stop smoothly and at the right spot to be a challenge.

Because a simulation lacks one crucial ingredient. Feedback. You have no sensation of speed and you can't feel the unit braking. You also lack a sixth sense. When I drive, sometimes I just get that weird feeling something is wrong. It may be the sound of the motors or a brake not hitting the right spot and even the delay it takes for a unit to respond may just feel a little odd.

A Sim is pretty sterile and can be consistent every time. Drive the Sim like a pc game and you should notice a difference.

 

[MartinB1]

A trainer once said to me 'we pay you for what you know not what do'. One moment your having a good day and then something out of course happens and you have to react, sometimes very quickly, in the correct way. Aside from the skill of driving the train itself, it's the ability to apply the rules correctly when things go wrong that is part of the skill of being a driver. How often do things go wrong? That probably depends on what you drive and where you drive it.

Train driving is definitely one of those jobs that is all about experience. You might say you start with a bucket full of luck and and empty bucket of experience. The aim is to fill the experience bucket before the luck one empties. The moment you start to feel comfortable you can guarantee something will give you a fright with the potential to bite your backside big time. One slip of concentration and you can make all manner of mistakes. You never get a second go a stopping properly in a station or at a red. You can't correct the spelling mistake and send it to the printer again in this job.

The biggest challenge as has been touched on is shift work. If you are a train sim enthusiast try getting up at 3am, go for a drive in the car for half an hour. Then switch your pc on and drive on your simulator all morning until lunch time. You can have one 40 minute break and you can't press pause to go to the toilet! I am not having a dig at you guys, just go try it and see what it's like.

That is it isn't it? It is maintaining the concentration levels throughout a shift, being able to draw upon your rules knowledge at a moments notice, having your route knowledge ie all the speeds/braking points depending on conditions/gradients/what signal indication you require/crossover speeds. On top of that you need to be able to deal with faults and failures.

At my TOC you need to do a minimum of 220 hours of actual driving (in reality close to 300) before you can take your final assessments, on top of your rules/routes,traction elements.

Once you have reached a competent standard in many ways the job is easy, the hardest aspects are maintaining your concentration, dealing with out of course situations and bad conditions, and actually retaining your knowledge.

I've only been productive for 8 months and I am already feeling like I need to get my head back in the rulebook (which I have been doing).

Maybe to summarise once you are qualified the actual act of driving is fairly easy, however the job as a whole has its easy and hard elements.

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[PudseyBearHST]

A trainer once said to me 'we pay you for what you know not what do'. One moment your having a good day and then something out of course happens and you have to react, sometimes very quickly, in the correct way. Aside from the skill of driving the train itself, it's the ability to apply the rules correctly when things go wrong that is part of the skill of being a driver. How often do things go wrong? That probably depends on what you drive and where you drive it.

Train driving is definitely one of those jobs that is all about experience. You might say you start with a bucket full of luck and and empty bucket of experience. The aim is to fill the experience bucket before the luck one empties. The moment you start to feel comfortable you can guarantee something will give you a fright with the potential to bite your backside big time. One slip of concentration and you can make all manner of mistakes. You never get a second go a stopping properly in a station or at a red. You can't correct the spelling mistake and send it to the printer again in this job.

The biggest challenge as has been touched on is shift work. If you are a train sim enthusiast try getting up at 3am, go for a drive in the car for half an hour. Then switch your pc on and drive on your simulator all morning until lunch time. You can have one 40 minute break and you can't press pause to go to the toilet! I am not having a dig at you guys, just go try it and see what it's like.

Thanks for your reply. As I say, I fully appreciate that simulators are nothing like the real thing and thats why Ive brought it to you guys/girls (train drivers and experts) to get an insight into what its like being a train driver (specifically train driving as well as other aspects).

 

[PudseyBearHST]

That is it isn't it? It is maintaining the concentration levels throughout a shift, being able to draw upon your rules knowledge at a moments notice, having your route knowledge ie all the speeds/braking points depending on conditions/gradients/what signal indication you require/crossover speeds. On top of that you need to be able to deal with faults and failures.

At my TOC you need to do a minimum of 220 hours of actual driving (in reality close to 300) before you can take your final assessments, on top of your rules/routes,traction elements.

Once you have reached a competent standard in many ways the job is easy, the hardest aspects are maintaining your concentration, dealing with out of course situations and bad conditions, and actually retaining your knowledge.

I've only been productive for 8 months and I am already feeling like I need to get my head back in the rulebook (which I have been doing).

Maybe to summarise once you are qualified the actual act of driving is fairly easy, however the job as a whole has its easy and hard elements.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

Thanks for your reply. Do rules constantly change so I'm guessing that you need to keep up to date? Its interesting to read a job specification for a driver and it seems more difficult then just 'memorising' a list of rules. For example, a depot driver with SWT has the following about safety in their job spec:

Comply with all safety systems and responsibilities at all times.
Develop a pro-active approach to safety issues.
Report any accidents, assaults or near miss occurrences in accordance with local reporting procedures.
Report any safety irregularities, faults or unusual occurrences in the prescribed manner.
Ensure all relevant PPE for tasks/activities is worn at all times and in accordance with local safety instructions / risk assessments.
Participate in all staff briefings to ensure you are informed of all relevant information.
Examine all safety procedures, notices, publications and instructions.

 

[colchesterken]

I had a go on a class )3 shunter at the EARM on one of their "Drive an engine day"
only about 15 min
I took to it very well great fun. I would like to have a full day driver experience but I am too mean

 

[PudseyBearHST]

A trainer once said to me 'we pay you for what you know not what do'. One moment your having a good day and then something out of course happens and you have to react, sometimes very quickly, in the correct way. Aside from the skill of driving the train itself, it's the ability to apply the rules correctly when things go wrong that is part of the skill of being a driver. How often do things go wrong? That probably depends on what you drive and where you drive it.

Train driving is definitely one of those jobs that is all about experience. You might say you start with a bucket full of luck and and empty bucket of experience. The aim is to fill the experience bucket before the luck one empties. The moment you start to feel comfortable you can guarantee something will give you a fright with the potential to bite your backside big time. One slip of concentration and you can make all manner of mistakes. You never get a second go a stopping properly in a station or at a red. You can't correct the spelling mistake and send it to the printer again in this job.

The biggest challenge as has been touched on is shift work. If you are a train sim enthusiast try getting up at 3am, go for a drive in the car for half an hour. Then switch your pc on and drive on your simulator all morning until lunch time. You can have one 40 minute break and you can't press pause to go to the toilet! I am not having a dig at you guys, just go try it and see what it's like.

Not meaning to go off topic nor undermine your statement but can train drivers quickly go to the toilet when they stop at a station? I'm guessing they are not suppose to but I remember a few years back I walked into Slough Station and I saw a train driver running from the toilet back to his cab. It was on platform 5 (which is where the only toilets are on the station unless its changed) and so I guess it was not as bad as if he was coming from another platform.

 

[TimboM]

Not meaning to go off topic nor undermine your statement but can train drivers quickly go to the toilet when they stop at a station? I'm guessing they are not suppose to but I remember a few years back I walked into Slough Station and I saw a train driver running from the toilet back to his cab. It was on platform 5 (which is where the only toilets are on the station unless its changed) and so I guess it was not as bad as if he was coming from another platform.

I'll let those in the know answer, but I've seen studies re. (car) driving that being desperate to relieve oneself and "holding on" materially impairs concentration - so from a safety perspective (and a staff welfare perspective) you'd think it would be permitted if absolutely necessary?

Either that or there's lots of bottles of 'orange squash' alongside the railways as are unfortunately found aplenty by the sides of motorways these days hock:

 

[Johncleesefan]

There have been a few occasions at a station I have popped the butterfly and jumped out, said to the guard I'm off for a wiz and given thumbs up when ready again. You won't find that in the rule book but needs must sometimes

 

[MisterT]

I don't know anything about British train drivers, but in the Netherlands, I can give Control a call, and tell them I need to go to the toilet. Depending on the situation, they send another driver or when there no one available, they call the signaller and tell them to wait for my phone call to tell them I'm ready, before they clear the signal.

When I'm truly desperate, I stop the train and give the signaller a call that I need to go to the toilet and that I'll give them a call when I'm ready to go.

Of course I try to avoid these situations. Usually, I go to the toilet just before I have to drive the train and I use the time between trains too.

 

[jc1]

I find memorizing the rules and being disciplined enough to go over them again on a free day to be challenging.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

I'll let those in the know answer, but I've seen studies re. (car) driving that being desperate to relieve oneself and "holding on" materially impairs concentration - so from a safety perspective (and a staff welfare perspective) you'd think it would be permitted if absolutely necessary?

Either that or there's lots of bottles of 'orange squash' alongside the railways as are unfortunately found aplenty by the sides of motorways these days hock:

Thats exactly my thought too. Not ideal but its important they get rid of all distractions (i.e. reliving oneself) before continuing on as you say.

Thanks JohncleeseFan and MisterT for confirming this

 

[Billy A]

Push the lever forward to brake, Pull it backward to take power....Job done

If you ever find yourself driving outside the UK you might want to check in advance what pushing forward and pulling back does there....there's no consistency!

 

[D365]

There have been a few occasions at a station I have popped the butterfly and jumped out, said to the guard I'm off for a wiz and given thumbs up when ready again. You won't find that in the rule book but needs must sometimes

Are you able to take advantage of longer layover times for this, or if you've arrived early at a station?

 

[MisterT]

If you ever find yourself driving outside the UK you might want to check in advance what pushing forward and pulling back does there....there's no consistency!

Well, it would probably be safe to let him drive in the Netherlands as the train will not move here when he pulls back
(We push forwards to drive and pull back to brake).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, it would probably be safe to let him drive in the Netherlands as the train will not move here when he pulls back
(We push forwards to drive and pull back to brake).

I think that's true of Manchester trams too. I always had the impression we had it the other way round so if you brake heavily and are thrown forward you will brake more, not inadvertently accelerate.

 

[185143]

Are you able to take advantage of longer layover times for this, or if you've arrived early at a station?

The last time I was at Sutton on GTR Thameslink-the driver did exactly that!

 

[InOban]

This has been a fascinating thread to follow (there have been several related threads on route learning and driverless trains).

Several drivers have commented that much of the time it is quite repetitive and it is too easy to go into what I call autopilot, just as when we are driving along a very familiar road. It is too easy for a driver to rely on the AWS to alert him of approaching signals at danger, rather than keeping a proper lookout. Yet a driver is expected to remain fully alert to handle any​thing unexpected.
Any safety expert will state that this is an impossible ask of anyone, whether a train driver or a pilot, and is itself a source of danger; too many incidents on both rail and in air arise from 'zoning out'.
That's why there are those who argue that ATO is essential because computers don't lose concentration.
I don't know what the answer is.

BTW if your simulator isn't giving a realistic experience, then it's not fit for purpose. Those on which pilots learn how to handle emergencies have to give the full experience, bearing in mind that it would be far to dangerous to practise these manoeuvres in a real aircraft.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

I would say the vital part of operating a train SAFELY is maintaining your concentration and alertness throughout the time the train is in operation whether you are hauling passengers or freight.
The Hinton Rail Disaster (Canada 1986) seems to highlight a need for there to be a mandatory requirement for two people in the cab on long distance runs.
The video is 1/4 as the full version seems to have been deleted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24yBuuCET6Y

Hi. Not sure which country you are in but when I click on the link it says the following: "This video contains content from Fox Networks Group, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds." I am in the UK.

Interesting comment about always having 2 drivers for long distances- correct me if I'm wrong, but i think its pretty much now always that the driver is on his/her own in the UK. Also not sure if 2 drivers would be economically viable.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

This has been a fascinating thread to follow (there have been several related threads on route learning and driverless trains).

Several drivers have commented that much of the time it is quite repetitive and it is too easy to go into what I call autopilot, just as when we are driving along a very familiar road. It is too easy for a driver to rely on the AWS to alert him of approaching signals at danger, rather than keeping a proper lookout. Yet a driver is expected to remain fully alert to handle any​thing unexpected.
Any safety expert will state that this is an impossible ask of anyone, whether a train driver or a pilot, and is itself a source of danger; too many incidents on both rail and in air arise from 'zoning out'.
That's why there are those who argue that ATO is essential because computers don't lose concentration.
I don't know what the answer is.

BTW if your simulator isn't giving a realistic experience, then it's not fit for purpose. Those on which pilots learn how to handle emergencies have to give the full experience, bearing in mind that it would be far to dangerous to practise these manoeuvres in a real aircraft.

Indeed it has been.

 

[bramling]

This has been a fascinating thread to follow (there have been several related threads on route learning and driverless trains).

Several drivers have commented that much of the time it is quite repetitive and it is too easy to go into what I call autopilot, just as when we are driving along a very familiar road. It is too easy for a driver to rely on the AWS to alert him of approaching signals at danger, rather than keeping a proper lookout. Yet a driver is expected to remain fully alert to handle any​thing unexpected.
Any safety expert will state that this is an impossible ask of anyone, whether a train driver or a pilot, and is itself a source of danger; too many incidents on both rail and in air arise from 'zoning out'.
That's why there are those who argue that ATO is essential because computers don't lose concentration.
I don't know what the answer is.

BTW if your simulator isn't giving a realistic experience, then it's not fit for purpose. Those on which pilots learn how to handle emergencies have to give the full experience, bearing in mind that it would be far to dangerous to practise these manoeuvres in a real aircraft.

A couple of points:

1) The ideal situation is to have the driver driving the train, but with sufficient technological safeguards to mitigate against the consequences of any error. Generally speaking the ideal form of this is of course continuous ATP, although it could well be argued that TPWS has proved sufficiently effective. One way or another this gives all the advantages manual driving has over ATO, which in my view is only really suitable for rapid-transit metro applications, preferably those mainly or entirely in tunnel.

2) Certainly my experience of simulators used by the rail industry is that they are more for teaching and practising application of procedures rather than teaching someone how to drive a train over a route. They may be useful for getting a complete novice to he point where they know what a train cab looks like and on general terms what the various controls do, but that's about it. However they are very useful for running through operational procedures, or giving someone the chance to react to a specific scenario that doesn't often happen for real. One could for example rehearse the follow-up to a SPAD, and the trainer could throw in some curved balls like a passcom being activated just to simulate real-life pressures or things that could potentially throw someone off course.

 

[Juniper Driver]

The biggest challenge as has been touched on is shift work. If you are a train sim enthusiast try getting up at 3am, go for a drive in the car for half an hour. Then switch your pc on and drive on your simulator all morning until lunch time. You can have one 40 minute break and you can't press pause to go to the toilet! I am not having a dig at you guys, just go try it and see what it's like.

Yup will be doing that but not on the sim.Got to pop down the yard and get the train out first.

Got to get to work first,though.Not moaning though as I'm used to it.Par for the course.

 

[ComUtoR]

If you ever find yourself driving outside the UK you might want to check in advance what pushing forward and pulling back does there....there's no consistency!

319s are two handed but it still goes forward for brake and backwards for power.

I'd be interested to see the differences between the PBC's all round the country/world.

 

[axlecounter]

In Switzerland and Italy it's forward for power and backwards for brake. Power on the right and brakes on the left (not always been that way though). Interoperable locomotives have the other way round (left-right), which I think is what is used in Germany.

By the way, what's a "brake tab"?

 

[ComUtoR]

In Switzerland and Italy it's forward for power and backwards for brake. Power on the right and brakes on the left

319 has brake on the left, power on the right. My other units have the CPBC on the left and a 700 has the controller in the middle.

By the way, what's a "brake tab"?

The 700 has 2 interfaces. They are heavily computer based. The screen has a number of tabs which displays various data. Each dedicated to a different task. The brake tab shows 'brake data'

Its is really unintuitive. Personally I think the entire concept is good but it has been implemented badly.

 

[axlecounter]

And what are those data that make you comfortable when braking?

 

[33056]

You're quite right. The 317 EMU leaks like a sieve and the compressor will not run without power in the overheads, when the main reservoir pressure gets too low the emergency brakes will apply along with the sprung parking brakes. When you get line volts back and the main compressor starts it can take a few minutes to 'build the air' up again above the limit where the brakes will apply.

Try waiting for a class 08 or 09 to release the brakes on a long rake of wagons that have been standing for a few days

 

[ComUtoR]

And what are those data that make you comfortable when braking?

Its the electronic holding brake that freaks me out. For years 'off' is essentially 'neutral' and you can roll, as no doubt we can all attest to. In a 700 you have no hillstart but the unit will give you brake until you take power. it also has an 'off' position with is neither in power or brake but the unit will hold itself.

What also weirds me out a little is the pneumatic brake gauge I never look at. Normally I have a quick glance at the brake res to see how much pressure I'm getting. In a 700 its electronic so the brake res doesn't move but you do get a visual representation of how much % you are applying on the main driving tab.

As westcoaster says. Its barely worth looking as you tend to drive them more from the units feel and how your performing rather than notching.

Sometimes having a visual reassurance is certainly comforting. I like to see the holding brake when I'm pulling away.

 

[MartinB1]

Its the electronic holding brake that freaks me out. For years 'off' is essentially 'neutral' and you can roll, as no doubt we can all attest to. In a 700 you have no hillstart but the unit will give you brake until you take power. it also has an 'off' position with is neither in power or brake but the unit will hold itself.

What also weirds me out a little is the pneumatic brake gauge I never look at. Normally I have a quick glance at the brake res to see how much pressure I'm getting. In a 700 its electronic so the brake res doesn't move but you do get a visual representation of how much % you are applying on the main driving tab.

As westcoaster says. Its barely worth looking as you tend to drive them more from the units feel and how your performing rather than notching.

Sometimes having a visual reassurance is certainly comforting. I like to see the holding brake when I'm pulling away.

This is at the risk of turning this discussion into a traction thread. I'm still waiting to be trained on the 707, however on the 444/450's the holding break is set at a slightly higher speed than the 700/707 so you really have to be careful to avoid stopping short of where you want to particularly when approaching buffer stops. Plus the slight delay from when you operate the break, to when the break actually applies also complicates it.

At my depot I only drive 444/450's occasionally, and for me these units are easier the more you drive them.

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