June 2024 Timetable Change

[hexagon789]

Completely agree re that relatively large gap. Any idea if that's being filled in on June 2024 timetable?

No changes.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I hope they bring it back at some point, but at the moment it doesn't seem likely anytime soon.

Running a Liverpool-Stalybridge EMU service in the other half-hour would be useful, as Northern did (with DMUs) before any of the wires went up.
I don't suppose the TPEs stopping at Lea Green and Newton le Willows helps the case for a second stopper.
Warrington gets 2tph from Earlestown/NLW now that Northern runs to Chester as well as TfW.

 

[MCR247]

Thanks for that explanation, as under normal operation only a couple of freights a day are booked into the goods line at Colchester rather than at least 2 passenger services an hour I wonder if this could ever be reviewed? Of course at times of disruption it occurs more frequently and there‘s some ECS services too.

From my understanding of it, the determining factor doesn’t seem to be how often it happens, but the impact when it does happen.

Passenger services are quite nippy, so the time saved probably won’t be much, and would could just result in longer dwells instead of actual savings. But having a long/heavy freight train slowing down on the mainline more than it needs to, will likely have a greater knock on effect to pathing of other trains. You’d have passenger trains catching up with freight trains that are now taking longer to clear the route than before.

 

[dk1]

Thanks for that explanation, as under normal operation only a couple of freights a day are booked into the goods line at Colchester rather than at least 2 passenger services an hour I wonder if this could ever be reviewed? Of course at times of disruption it occurs more frequently and there‘s some ECS services too.

I do wonder if the infrastructure on the GEML could be considered for reviewing in a similar way as mentioned recently in Modern Railways for the north end of the WCML? At times the division between renewal and enhancement seems too restrictive when there might be opportunities for modest improvements that could make a real difference.

The GEML has had massive investment in the OHL which was ongoing for years & years. Thats why we no longer have heat related speed restrictions on it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Mar 2024 ==

It’s also had huge changes in readiness for the Elizabeth Line, Shenfield area resignalled & remodelled twice and now Beaulieu Park station & all the infrastructure that’s involved in that project.

 

[306024]

So they spent millions upgrading the track, signalling, turnouts etc to raise the speed limit from 70 to 90mph years ago....only for the majority of trains to poodle along because the timetable isn't written efficiently to make use of it lol. What makes me laugh is when a Southend or Colchester Town service to London calling at Romford still catches the previous service up that was non stop!!

The signalling on the main lines through Stratford was designed for non stop running, long before the Olympics and everything that subsequently bought to the area. Today you would probably design it with more signals and a lower linespeed, like the electric line is.

You could write the timetable 'more efficiently' by removing all the Stratford calls, or reducing the number of trains, but I wouldn't like to be the one suggesting it. It is inevitable that a train standing in platform 9 will cause a driver of a following train to see restrictive signals back at Forest Gate.

 

[Snow1964]

Extract of the Cross Country Press Release, changing calling patterns, and since when has there been a September timetable change

a further move to relieve crowding on some of CrossCountry’s long-distance services this summer will see temporary changes to the timetable - meaning busier services will make fewer station calls from June to September only.

Adjusting these calling patterns – at Wakefield Westgate and Chesterfield, Basingstoke and Winchester – encourages passengers making shorter journeys to switch to other operators, providing more capacity for CrossCountry customers making longer journeys.

Bigger fleet, more seats: CrossCountry reveals plans to transform customer experience by May 2025 | CrossCountry

Train operator announces massive expansion to long-distance fleet, transforming journeys with around 25% more seats available than today.

www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk

 

[The Planner]

Extra of the Cross Country Press Release, changing calling patterns

Bigger fleet, more seats: CrossCountry reveals plans to transform customer experience by May 2025 | CrossCountry

Train operator announces massive expansion to long-distance fleet, transforming journeys with around 25% more seats available than today.

www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk

Expect those to become permanent or an "extended trial"

 

[xotGD]

Extract of the Cross Country Press Release, changing calling patterns, and since when has there been a September timetable change

Bigger fleet, more seats: CrossCountry reveals plans to transform customer experience by May 2025 | CrossCountry

Train operator announces massive expansion to long-distance fleet, transforming journeys with around 25% more seats available than today.

www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk

Does this mean services running centre road through Wakefield Westgate?

 

[pompeyfan]

Are they removing both Winchester and Basingstoke, or just Winchester? I can understand Winchester but Basingstoke seems like an odd decision due to the line speed, and the various connections provided from SWR services from Portsmouth/Fareham and Salisbury - Basingstoke via Andover

 

[Llandudno]

Expect those to become permanent or an "extended trial"

If XC no longer call at Chesterfield will the running times be speeded up or will the trains wait a further 5 minutes at Derby southbound and 5 minutes at Sheffield northbound in lieu of the Chesterfield call.

If so what’s the point in skipping Chesterfield which boasted nearly 2million users pre covid?
Numbers are less than that currently and so are the number of trains calling there…

 

[louis97]

If XC no longer call at Chesterfield will the running times be speeded up or will the trains wait a further 5 minutes at Derby southbound and 5 minutes at Sheffield northbound in lieu of the Chesterfield call.

Unlikely the journey times will be sped up as XC will be more than happy with the extra dwell time at Derby.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Not calling at Basingstoke is a disgrace. Given that they’ve just announced an extra 5x Avanti 221s in addition to the 7 already being obtained, there’s no excuse for single-sets in the Bournemouth turns which should provide enough capacity to serve the stations they’re contracted to!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

since when has there been a September timetable change

There has always been a September change with many summer dated trains ceasing running then (think Summer Saturday additionals to Penzance, Newquay, Paignton, Weymouth and Pembroke).

It’s contained as in a date set within the June to December timetable and the trains will be ‘dated’ accordingly.

 

[DDB]

Not calling at Basingstoke is a disgrace. Given that they’ve just announced an extra 5x Avanti 221s in addition to the 7 already being obtained, there’s no excuse for single-sets in the Bournemouth turns which should provide enough capacity to serve the stations they’re contracted to!

But they haven't got these extra trains yet hence the hopefully temporary changes until they arrive.

 

[dk1]

There has always been a September change with many summer dated trains ceasing running then (think Summer Saturday additionals to Penzance, Newquay, Paignton, Weymouth and Pembroke).

It’s contained as in a date set within the June to December timetable and the trains will be ‘dated’ accordingly.

Was always a ‘wiggly’ line through the middle of the times in the GBTT meaning this train does not operate for the full duration of this timetable.

Great Yarmouth Saturday extras & an early Ipswich-Peterborough Sunday service always finish after the first weekend of September too.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Was always a ‘wiggly’ line through the middle of the times in the GBTT meaning this train does not operate for the full duration of this timetable.

Unfortunately in recent years the GBTT has become overrun with ‘dated trains’ due to a general inability to mask minor variations in working times from period to period using judicious public book differentials to maintain a standardised publicly advertised schedule throughout. I’ve seen ‘wiggly lines’ used for simple platforming variations! Proper timetabling is becoming a lost art.

 

[dk1]

Unfortunately in recent years the GBTT has become overrun with ‘dated trains’ due to a general inability to mask minor variations in working times from period to period using judicious public book differentials to maintain a standardised publicly advertised schedule throughout. I’ve seen ‘wiggly lines’ used for simple platforming variations! Proper timetabling is becoming a lost art.

Such a shame. I used to look forward to the GBTTs when the timetable changes where May & September. Read them like a good book.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Such a shame. I used to look forward to the GBTTs when the timetable changes where May & September. Read them like a good book.

Me too! Table 51 Summer Saturdays was always the first place to look if it was a May edition. I got hooked on timetabling when RAIL published a puzzle in the late 90s, challenging readers to work out how all the C of E bishops would reach Canterbury for a synod meeting without using London terminals. Quite a few hours spent working it all out and then I never actually saw what the solution was (perhaps it proved too difficult to judge…)

 

[dk1]

Me too! Table 51 Summer Saturdays was always the first place to look if it was a May edition. I got hooked on timetabling when RAIL published a puzzle in the late 90s, challenging readers to work out how all the C of E bishops would reach Canterbury for a synod meeting without using London terminals. Quite a few hours spent working it all out and then I never actually saw what the solution was (perhaps it proved too difficult to judge…)

Mine was in the early 80s. Lived opposite a railway station so popped in every day for weeks before until they arrived to buy one in the booking office with my pocket money or tapping my a mum up.

 

[306024]

Proper timetabling is becoming a lost art.

There are some still around who know how to timetable properly, but this requires above all, time to do a methodical and accurate job. A combination of late decision making, whether it be DfT, NR, TOC directors or whoever, and diversion of staff onto strike timetables, is not giving those responsible sufficient time to do a proper job, much to their frustration too.

Unfortunately the way many planners rose to the task during Covid has now made a rod for their own back, with everyone thinking planning timetables can be done at the drop of a hat.

 

[Kite159]

Not calling at Basingstoke is a disgrace. Given that they’ve just announced an extra 5x Avanti 221s in addition to the 7 already being obtained, there’s no excuse for single-sets in the Bournemouth turns which should provide enough capacity to serve the stations they’re contracted to!

Especially in my experience of using northbound XC services from Basingstoke, the busy section tends to be after Reading & Oxford. Southbound trains tend to empty out at Reading. Unless there is a cruise at Southampton or kickball traffic (Southampton vs team from West Midlands etc)

The trains will just end up sitting at Southampton Airport Parkway for the correct dwell time when passengers for Winchester from the Oxford direction find themselves having to change twice with some rubbish connections considering Basingstoke -> Southampton is 1tph. If XC cared about "encourages passengers making shorter journeys to switch to other operators, providing more capacity for CrossCountry customers making longer journeys." they would skip Coventry & Wolverhampton, as no doubt they get more local passengers from Wolverhampton/Coventry travelling to Birmingham then they get Basingstoke passengers travelling to Reading [probably doesn't help that the timetable at Basingstoke where the stopper tends to depart quite soon after the XC] Northern simply won't cope with the extra passengers from Wakefield to Sheffield, they can barely cope already on the Leeds - Wakefield - Barnsley - Sheffield services.

 

[Llandudno]

Especially in my experience of using northbound XC services from Basingstoke, the busy section tends to be after Reading & Oxford. Southbound trains tend to empty out at Reading. Unless there is a cruise at Southampton or kickball traffic (Southampton vs team from West Midlands etc)

The trains will just end up sitting at Southampton Airport Parkway for the correct dwell time when passengers for Winchester from the Oxford direction find themselves having to change twice with some rubbish connections considering Basingstoke -> Southampton is 1tph. If XC cared about "encourages passengers making shorter journeys to switch to other operators, providing more capacity for CrossCountry customers making longer journeys." they would skip Coventry & Wolverhampton, as no doubt they get more local passengers from Wolverhampton/Coventry travelling to Birmingham then they get Basingstoke passengers travelling to Reading [probably doesn't help that the timetable at Basingstoke where the stopper tends to depart quite soon after the XC] Northern simply won't cope with the extra passengers from Wakefield to Sheffield, they can barely cope already on the Leeds - Wakefield - Barnsley - Sheffield services.

Same for Chesterfield, not only will it lose it’s only direct Birmingham (and beyond) train but the only direct train to Leeds will be the totally inadequate 2 car Northern train which is regularly full and standing even at off peak times!

 

[30907]

A quick look at RTT suggests:
Chesterfield is very little changed from the present (ie a fair number non stopping)
Wakefield loses several calls on Saturday 15 June (and presumably other Saturdays, but not yet showing?), none on weekdays.
Basingstoke has a random one on 15/6 and Winchester none that I can find. Obviously that is incomplete, but are we reading too much into a press release?

 

[DDB]

Same for Chesterfield, not only will it lose it’s only direct Birmingham (and beyond) train but the only direct train to Leeds will be the totally inadequate 2 car Northern train which is regularly full and standing even at off peak times!

But people can take the EMR twice an hour intercity services to change at Derby or Sheffield respectively.

 

[dk1]

This is the thing now since franchises ceased to operate as we knew them. In the previous model XC would not want to withdraw from stations such as Basingstoke, Chesterfield, Winchester or even Audley End due to the revenue loss. These often local flows all added to their income but I suppose that no longer matters in the brave new world of train operators.

 

[Watershed]

A quick look at RTT suggests:
Chesterfield is very little changed from the present (ie a fair number non stopping)
Wakefield loses several calls on Saturday 15 June (and presumably other Saturdays, but not yet showing?), none on weekdays.
Basingstoke has a random one on 15/6 and Winchester none that I can find. Obviously that is incomplete, but are we reading too much into a press release?

It might very well be that the changes haven't yet been enacted, if they're late-notice. But yes, skipping Basingstoke is absolutely ridiculous as it allows connections to/from lots of SWR stations. It also forms a key part of the Basingstoke-Reading service, particularly on Sundays when GWR only run 1tph.

It's disappointing that rather than properly fixing the capacity problem - which would have been easily doable by transferring all the Avanti 221s to XC - they are only getting 12 of them and are attempting to "become a more IC operator" as I believe one of their Managers put it. This completely overlooks the fact that short hops around cities make up the majority of their passenger journeys (by volume, at least).

This is far from the only move they've taken to try and force local passengers off their trains. See also: making their trains "reservations compulsory" between Birmingham and Wolverhampton and then refusing to issue reservations for that journey, pretending the train is "sold out". I get what they're aiming at, but there simply isn't enough capacity or frequency on other services!

 

[Magdalia]

since when has there been a September timetable change

I used to look forward to the GBTTs when the timetable changes where May & September.

The regions issued separate summer and winter timetables up to 1964. There was a return to separate summer and winter timetables in 1986 which lasted until privatisation. For the period in between there were still some significant changes in September/October, but with the changes given in supplements to the May timetable.

It is the December timetable change that is a relatively recent phenomenon. If I remember rightly this was linked to the opening of the Channel Tunnel.

 

[Iskra]

Especially in my experience of using northbound XC services from Basingstoke, the busy section tends to be after Reading & Oxford. Southbound trains tend to empty out at Reading. Unless there is a cruise at Southampton or kickball traffic (Southampton vs team from West Midlands etc)

The trains will just end up sitting at Southampton Airport Parkway for the correct dwell time when passengers for Winchester from the Oxford direction find themselves having to change twice with some rubbish connections considering Basingstoke -> Southampton is 1tph. If XC cared about "encourages passengers making shorter journeys to switch to other operators, providing more capacity for CrossCountry customers making longer journeys." they would skip Coventry & Wolverhampton, as no doubt they get more local passengers from Wolverhampton/Coventry travelling to Birmingham then they get Basingstoke passengers travelling to Reading [probably doesn't help that the timetable at Basingstoke where the stopper tends to depart quite soon after the XC] Northern simply won't cope with the extra passengers from Wakefield to Sheffield, they can barely cope already on the Leeds - Wakefield - Barnsley - Sheffield services.

Yes, it’s not really been mentioned until you said it, but this is really going to damage Sheffield-Wakefield traffic as the remaining options are incredibly poor.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Mar 2024 ==

Same for Chesterfield, not only will it lose it’s only direct Birmingham (and beyond) train but the only direct train to Leeds will be the totally inadequate 2 car Northern train which is regularly full and standing even at off peak times!

That train is going to be unbearable then now. I’d just switched to using that instead of XC. I now will just drive as the all station stoppers are painful.

 

[dk1]

The regions issued separate summer and winter timetables up to 1964. There was a return to separate summer and winter timetables in 1986 which lasted until privatisation. For the period in between there were still some significant changes in September/October, but with the changes given in supplements to the May timetable.

It is the December timetable change that is a relatively recent phenomenon. If I remember rightly this was linked to the opening of the Channel Tunnel.

Yes all very European from then on. I wasn’t a fan.

 

[duffield]

Extract of the Cross Country Press Release, changing calling patterns, and since when has there been a September timetable change

Bigger fleet, more seats: CrossCountry reveals plans to transform customer experience by May 2025 | CrossCountry

Train operator announces massive expansion to long-distance fleet, transforming journeys with around 25% more seats available than today.

www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk

This sucks for those of us who change onto/off of XC at Chesterfield to get to/from Nottingham. Chesterfield is a very convenient same platform change when heading north or returning from the north. And those of us from Nottingham will now be staying on between Chesterfield and Sheffield, further overcrowding the already inadequate 2-coach Leeds services. But that's fine for XC, makes it Northern's problem instead.