June 2024 Timetable Change

[Railperf]

Class 720, 755-E and 745 timings are the same - they have been slightly altered e.g. - Liv St to Stratford is 6½ vs 7 for all of the new trains now.

The new 745's are at least 3/4 of a min faster away from every station stop in dry conditions than the loco hauled stock, and the gap increases in wet weather. The speed hold setting allows maximum speed to be held more precisely which also improves sectional running times. But those improvements haven't fully been reflected in the timetable yet, and probably never will. The only diagram that did squeeze out the most of the 745's was Norwich in 90.

 

[800301]

The new 745's are at least 3/4 of a min faster away from every station stop in dry conditions than the loco hauled stock, and the gap increases in wet weather. The speed hold setting allows maximum speed to be held more precisely which also improves sectional running times. But those improvements haven't fully been reflected in the timetable yet, and probably never will. The only diagram that did squeeze out the most of the 745's was Norwich in 90.

As much as they are faster units along with the 720’s, I’m quite happy the times haven’t been changed much, the reliability and on time performance is second to none and I’d like to see it stay that way, certainly makes a mockery of GWR whose services don’t have that sort of redundancy

 

[Railperf]

As much as they are faster units along with the 720’s, I’m quite happy the times haven’t been changed much, the reliability and on time performance is second to none and I’d like to see it stay that way, certainly makes a mockery of GWR whose services don’t have that sort of redundancy

That's a good and valid point. My biggest gripe is the timing between Shenfield and Stratford and the gap between services 13.5 minutes including recovery would be sufficient rather than 15 min. It means most trains end up coming to a crawl or a stop between Manor PArk and Stratford because they have easily caught up the service ahead. If additional recovery time is needed stick in an extra half miute before Shenfield so that evrryone has a chance of leaving Shenfield on the dot. Today when a service can arrive at Stratford early it has to wait its booked departure time which can be up to 2 minutes. In those cases it feels like Stratford should be a set-down stop now. Certainly many people are less likely to board a GA train from Stratford into Liverpool Street now due to the Elizabeth line offering better connectivity within London.

 

[Bald Rick]

Today when a service can arrive at Stratford early it has to wait its booked departure time which can be up to 2 minutes. In those cases it feels like Stratford should be a set-down stop now.

Generally speaking, it‘s better for passengers to have a train sit at Stratford awaiting time than sat outside Liverpool St awaiting platform.

 

[dk1]

Generally speaking, it‘s better for passengers to have a train sit at Stratford awaiting time than sat outside Liverpool St awaiting platform.

Nice thing with Norwich up services is we don’t have to wait time at Stratford so can buzz off early. Frustrating though to then be thwarted outside Liverpool St waiting for the pesky Braintree to come out.

 

[Railperf]

Generally speaking, it‘s better for passengers to have a train sit at Stratford awaiting time than sat outside Liverpool St awaiting platform.

But then the train behind is often sitting at Maryland waiting for the one at Stratford to leave. A better balance of running/waiting time would improve the flow of trains through here and through to Liverpool Street. doesn't help that ow Jn is usually red now meaning kost services come into Stratford on single or double yellow

Nice thing with Norwich up services is we don’t have to wait time at Stratford so can buzz off early. Frustrating though to then be thwarted outside Liverpool St waiting for the pesky Braintree to come out.

One would have hoped with fewer Lizzy line trains and some extra platforms available, this sort of thing might have become a problem of the past. Plus the Braintree could do with leaving a couple of minutes earlier on current timings to keep it out of the way of your xx;00 which catches it at Witham! But only because of the archaic signalling were the Braintree has to come to almost a stop before the loop signal clears. Again..an operational issue that causes poor traffic flow.

 

[800301]

But then the train behind is often sitting at Maryland waiting for the one at Stratford to leave. A better balance of running/waiting time would improve the flow of trains through here and through to Liverpool Street. doesn't help that ow Jn is usually red now meaning kost services come into Stratford on single or double yellow

One would have hoped with fewer Lizzy line trains and some extra platforms available, this sort of thing might have become a problem of the past. Plus the Braintree could do with leaving a couple of minutes earlier on current timings to keep it out of the way of your xx;00 which catches it at Witham! But only because of the archaic signalling were the Braintree has to come to almost a stop before the loop signal clears. Again..an operational issue that causes poor traffic flow.

I’ll be honest in the year plus I’ve been travelling from Shenfield to Stratford/Liverpool Street it’s not that common for the trains to have to stop at Maryland, yes they’ll slow down but 9 times out of 10 we’ve just got into Stratford early, the problem of sitting outside Liverpool Street is more common but most of the time the train is still early even with a short hold outside

 

[Adrian1980uk]

But then the train behind is often sitting at Maryland waiting for the one at Stratford to leave. A better balance of running/waiting time would improve the flow of trains through here and through to Liverpool Street. doesn't help that ow Jn is usually red now meaning kost services come into Stratford on single or double yellow

One would have hoped with fewer Lizzy line trains and some extra platforms available, this sort of thing might have become a problem of the past. Plus the Braintree could do with leaving a couple of minutes earlier on current timings to keep it out of the way of your xx;00 which catches it at Witham! But only because of the archaic signalling were the Braintree has to come to almost a stop before the loop signal clears. Again..an operational issue that causes poor traffic flow.

There is definitely merit in improving traffic flow , it's a bit frustrating that Liverpool street to Norwich on a clear run could be done in about 1 hour 40mins on present stopping patterns but reliability and on time performance would take a hit as to achieve that sort of timing, everything would have to be perfect and any other train on the line running a minute or 2 late would cause lateness.

In cab signalling and various infrastructure improvements could help but by the time that happens my guess would be that would the journey time improvement possibilities would be taken up by adding additional trains on the line.

 

[dk1]

When we get greens at

I’ll be honest in the year plus I’ve been travelling from Shenfield to Stratford/Liverpool Street it’s not that common for the trains to have to stop at Maryland, yes they’ll slow down but 9 times out of 10 we’ve just got into Stratford early, the problem of sitting outside Liverpool Street is more common but most of the time the train is still early even with a short hold outside

Yes it’s been like this since the NXEA timetable change in 2004.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Mar 2024 ==

We just get used to it with many of us poodling along at 70-80 rather than 90mph after Shenfield to save stopping.

 

[louis97]

Plus the Braintree could do with leaving a couple of minutes earlier on current timings to keep it out of the way of your xx;00 which catches it at Witham! But only because of the archaic signalling were the Braintree has to come to almost a stop before the loop signal clears. Again..an operational issue that causes poor traffic flow.

Nothing archaic about it, those are the standards for a 25mph turnoff off a 100mph line, not an uncommon setup across the country. The turnout needs a speed increase to 40mph minimum to be compliant for flashing yellows.

 

[Alfie1014]

Nothing archaic about it, those are the standards for a 25mph turnoff off a 100mph line, not an uncommon setup across the country. The turnout needs a speed increase to 40mph minimum to be compliant for flashing yellows.

I‘ve always wondered why the approach to plat 1 at Colchester doesn’t have flashing yellows it’s frustrating to bowl along to be checked down to walking pace then accelerate back up to almost 40 into the platform? Would help the following Norwich’s to get the xx:18 Clacton and xx:36 Colchester Town services out of the way quicker!

 

[louis97]

I‘ve always wondered why the approach to plat 1 at Colchester doesn’t have flashing yellows it’s frustrating to bowl along to be checked down to walking pace then accelerate back up to almost 40 into the platform? Would help the following Norwich’s to get the xx:18 Clacton and xx:36 Colchester Town services out of the way quicker!

There is flashing yellows onto the goods lines, this means you can't have flashing yellows into platform 1 as there would be an overlap between the flashing aspect sequences. I suspect it was decided it was more beneficial to get freight onto the goods faster than the passenger trains into platform 1. There are ways around this however it requires a special aspect sequence to be devised, like at Hitchin for routes into the down platform and onto the flyover from the Down Fast.

 

[Railperf]

When we get greens at

Yes it’s been like this since the NXEA timetable change in 2004.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Mar 2024 ==

We just get used to it with many of us poodling along at 70-80 rather than 90mph after Shenfield to save stopping.

So they spent millions upgrading the track, signalling, turnouts etc to raise the speed limit from 70 to 90mph years ago....only for the majority of trains to poodle along because the timetable isn't written efficiently to make use of it lol. What makes me laugh is when a Southend or Colchester Town service to London calling at Romford still catches the previous service up that was non stop!!

 

[mangyiscute]

So they spent millions upgrading the track, signalling, turnouts etc to raise the speed limit from 70 to 90mph years ago....only for the majority of trains to poodle along because the timetable isn't written efficiently to make use of it lol. What makes me laugh is when a Southend or Colchester Town service to London calling at Romford still catches the previous service up that was non stop!!

Or you could look at it that they spent millions to create a very reliable but still pretty fast train service that can be relied on and has nice long comfortable trains - I think if this was the case across the country train usage would skyrocket!

 

[800301]

So they spent millions upgrading the track, signalling, turnouts etc to raise the speed limit from 70 to 90mph years ago....only for the majority of trains to poodle along because the timetable isn't written efficiently to make use of it lol. What makes me laugh is when a Southend or Colchester Town service to London calling at Romford still catches the previous service up that was non stop!!

Most times ARS will hold the fast service at Shenfield for the late running Romford to go in front of it anyway just to catch it up

 

[Kite159]

It's a shame Stratford -> Liverpool Street isn't treated in the same way as London Bridge -> Charing Cross/Cannon Street services with a "go when ready" rule so departing early etc.

 

[800301]

It's a shame Stratford -> Liverpool Street isn't treated in the same way as London Bridge -> Charing Cross/Cannon Street services with a "go when ready" rule so departing early etc.

There are quite a few set down only services the problem then appears at Liverpool Street

 

[Baji]

There will still be direct services between Brighton to Portsmouth service in June 2024 according to this page. I think the other changes still happening half-hourly Southampton to Brighton services and half hourly Portsmouth harbour to London Victoria

Direct trains from Portsmouth to Brighton saved as new timetable is revealed

Proposals to axe trains which run directly from Portsmouth to Brighton have been ditched – with a new timetable of improved railway services on the way.

www.portsmouth.co.uk

 

[Class 170101]

There are ways around this however it requires a special aspect sequence to be devised, like at Hitchin for routes into the down platform and onto the flyover from the Down Fast.

Would you care to elaborate? Not something I've ever heard of.

 

[swt_passenger]

There will still be direct services between Brighton to Portsmouth service in June 2024 according to this page. I think the other changes still happening half-hourly Southampton to Brighton services and half hourly Portsmouth harbour to London Victoria

Direct trains from Portsmouth to Brighton saved as new timetable is revealed

Proposals to axe trains which run directly from Portsmouth to Brighton have been ditched – with a new timetable of improved railway services on the way.

www.portsmouth.co.uk

This has been known for a few weeks, since late January, but appears in post #128 in this thread. It has also been discussed at length in the other thread about West Coastway changes, starting about here:

Southern timetable changes consultation Coastway West

But surely more people would want to visit the city centre and its maritime quarter rather than a suburb with its footballl ground? City centre is basically a student village now. Fratton is the busiest based on it being the most appropriate station for about half of Portsmouth residents. I...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[louis97]

Would you care to elaborate? Not something I've ever heard of.

At Hitchin, the flashing aspect sequence for Down Fast to Down platform is as would be expected for 4-aspect signalling. However for the move from Down Fast to the Flyover the signal which would in a standard 4-aspect flashing aspect sequence be at a double flashing yellow is held at double yellow. This signal that is held at double yellow is the one that would be a single flashing yellow if the route was set from the Down Fast into the Down Platform. The rest of the sequence for the Down Fast to Flyover is as would be expected for 4-aspect signalling. This is all supplemented by preliminary route indicators, and I think (but not 100% sure) the same applies for Down Fast to Down Slow crossing at the north end of the station (not passing through the platform).

 

[Baji]

are southern getting more train units because I only just noticed that the class 387s (4 car units) will be used on the Brighton to Southampton central route?

Southern timetable changes consultation Coastway West

But surely more people would want to visit the city centre and its maritime quarter rather than a suburb with its footballl ground? City centre is basically a student village now. Fratton is the busiest based on it being the most appropriate station for about half of Portsmouth residents. I...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[CarrotPie]

Are Southern getting more train units because I only just noticed that the class 387s (4-car units) will be used on the Brighton to Southampton Central route?

Yes; there's more information in the thread you linked and here.

 

[swt_passenger]

are southern getting more train units because I only just noticed that the class 387s (4 car units) will be used on the Brighton to Southampton central route?

Southern timetable changes consultation Coastway West

But surely more people would want to visit the city centre and its maritime quarter rather than a suburb with its footballl ground? City centre is basically a student village now. Fratton is the busiest based on it being the most appropriate station for about half of Portsmouth residents. I...

www.railforums.co.uk

Only 2 units from June has been stated in the linked thread, post #178 refers. Changes will be gradual, the 379s that trigger the GTR internal cascades don’t start until later in the year.

 

[Bikeman78]

As much as they are faster units along with the 720’s, I’m quite happy the times haven’t been changed much, the reliability and on time performance is second to none and I’d like to see it stay that way, certainly makes a mockery of GWR whose services don’t have that sort of redundancy

Which GWR trains do you have in mind? The IETs are perfectly capable of keeping time or even making up a few minutes. Random extra minutes in the schedule would have no effect when the service falls apart owing to flooding or wires down. I certainly don't want the schedules slackened because then I lose every day rather than only on days with disruption.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Mar 2024 ==

So they spent millions upgrading the track, signalling, turnouts etc to raise the speed limit from 70 to 90mph years ago....only for the majority of trains to poodle along because the timetable isn't written efficiently to make use of it lol. What makes me laugh is when a Southend or Colchester Town service to London calling at Romford still catches the previous service up that was non stop!!

I have arrived at Shenfield in time to walk across the island platform onto the train that departed Liverpool Street ahead of me.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Throwing padding time at schedules in the name of performance is a fool’s game (funny how Network Rail are often apparently keen on this approach.) Having trains intentionally sighting adverse signals just wastes expensive capacity, increases SPAD risk and impacts revenue by increasing journey times unnecessarily. It also adds maintenance cost through additional braking and acceleration.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Throwing padding time at schedules in the name of performance is a fool’s game (funny how Network Rail are often apparently keen on this approach.) Having trains intentionally sighting adverse signals just wastes expensive capacity, increases SPAD risk and impacts revenue by increasing journey times unnecessarily. It also adds maintenance cost through additional braking and acceleration.

The proper approach to this, as practiced in places like Switzerland, is to drive at a speed that you get greens, not accelerating to linespeed then stopping again. In countries who know how to operate railways properly, this is part of the working timetable, and often even core to the signalling system.

It is absolutely not a fool's errand, it is the only way to make a railway truly punctual - never run things to their maximum capability, always keep some capacity spare in case you need to catch up a delay.

 

[Railperf]

The proper approach to this, as practiced in places like Switzerland, is to drive at a speed that you get greens, not accelerating to linespeed then stopping again. In countries who know how to operate railways properly, this is part of the working timetable, and often even core to the signalling system.

It is absolutely not a fool's errand, it is the only way to make a railway truly punctual - never run things to their maximum capability, always keep some capacity spare in case you need to catch up a delay.

That would be the sophisticted way to do it - and many experienced drivers I know do check the schedules to understand where they will likely be held up and will drive slightly slower to have a clearer run - especially driving up to London where other trains are scheduled to join ahead at junctions along the way.

However a good driver pal tells me he is instructed to drive to the signals. The instruction is to stay on schedule so that if trains ahead are delayed, then his train will be close enough behind to be given an opportunity to pass - although in practice that isn't easily achieved.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Mar 2024 ==

It is absolutely not a fool's errand, it is the only way to make a railway truly punctual - never run things to their maximum capability, always keep some capacity spare in case you need to catch up a delay.

The question is how much spare capacity do you reasonably add-in? If adding in more padding ensures reliability, I am sure there comes a point when too much padding creates other problems. Last time I was in Switzerland, trains ran to the line's maximum speed and with good acceleration and braking seemed to start/ stop on time with no unnecessary signal stops or crawling along. So I'm not sure they are in too much additional running time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Mar 2024 ==

Which GWR trains do you have in mind? The IETs are perfectly capable of keeping time or even making up a few minutes. Random extra minutes in the schedule would have no effect when the service falls apart owing to flooding or wires down. I certainly don't want the schedules slackened because then I lose every day rather than only on days with disruption.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Mar 2024 ==


I have arrived at Shenfield in time to walk across the island platform onto the train that departed Liverpool Street ahead of me.

Today's timetable illustrates what can be done with no trains too close together and greens right through Stratford on the up. At least over a minute faster from Ilford with 73mph through Maryland instead of the usual crawl. Probably one of my fastest trips on the main line through Ilford to a stop at Stratford. Looks as though the minimum headway for good traffic flow is closer to 4 minutes taking into account a full minutes station call. Three minute headways means the following train is probably seeing double yellows at Manor Park!

 

[Alfie1014]

There is flashing yellows onto the goods lines, this means you can't have flashing yellows into platform 1 as there would be an overlap between the flashing aspect sequences. I suspect it was decided it was more beneficial to get freight onto the goods faster than the passenger trains into platform 1. There are ways around this however it requires a special aspect sequence to be devised, like at Hitchin for routes into the down platform and onto the flyover from the Down Fast.

Thanks for that explanation, as under normal operation only a couple of freights a day are booked into the goods line at Colchester rather than at least 2 passenger services an hour I wonder if this could ever be reviewed? Of course at times of disruption it occurs more frequently and there‘s some ECS services too.

I do wonder if the infrastructure on the GEML could be considered for reviewing in a similar way as mentioned recently in Modern Railways for the north end of the WCML? At times the division between renewal and enhancement seems too restrictive when there might be opportunities for modest improvements that could make a real difference.

 

[numtot12345]

Good to see that, but there is still the ridiculous gap in the Neilston-Glasgow service between the 0824 and 0905 departures; And the 0905 (just now at least) is booked a 3-car only! A train which I avoid if at all possible as it becomes extremely overcrowded. Pre-Covid there was an 0841 from Neilston.

Completely agree re that relatively large gap. Any idea if that's being filled in on June 2024 timetable?