Joe Duddington

[Harvester]

The great unknown is whether on the ECML descent from Stoke Summit, what speeds might have been achievable with light loads by a Duchess - or even a rebuilt Merchant Navy. Alas, we will never know the answer.

There was a fast run down Stoke bank by 46245 City of London on a return Kings Cross to Doncaster special as late as 9th June 1963. Although the train was full of enthusiasts no detailed log has ever been produced, but there were unsubstantiated claims of a very high maximum during the decent. More details available at the ‘Six Bells Junction’ website (unable to link).

 

[Bevan Price]

There was a fast run down Stoke bank by 46245 City of London on a return Kings Cross to Doncaster special as late as 9th June 1963. Although the train was full of enthusiasts no detailed log has ever been produced, but there were unsubstantiated claims of a very high maximum during the decent. More details available at the ‘Six Bells Junction’ website (unable to link).

The Railway Performance Society archive has a log of that tour. With load 12 coaches, there were 2 signal stops between Grantham & Stoke Summit.
The summit was passed at 52mph, and 98mph was recorded downhill before it slowed on the approach to Peterborough. Given the load, that seems to have been a pretty good performance, but a long way below Mallard's speed record.

 

[778]

The LMSR did not have many locations where it was safe to exceed 100 mph, and in any case typical WCML train loads were often too heavy to allow really high speeds to be attained -- loads of up to 16/17 coaches were not uncommon until the 1950s and early 1960s.

The great unknown is whether on the ECML descent from Stoke Summit, what speeds might have been achievable with light loads by a Duchess - or even a rebuilt Merchant Navy. Alas, we will never know the answer.

I thought an unrebuilt Merchant Navy would have been capable of higher speeds because of the streamlining.

Slightly off topic, but why did the A4s keep thier streamlining after the war when it was removed from the Coronations and Merchant Navys?

 

[WesternLancer]

I thought an unrebuilt Merchant Navy would have been capable of higher speeds because of the streamlining.

Slightly off topic, but why did the A4s keep thier streamlining after the war when it was removed from the Coronations and Merchant Navys?

Was removed from merchant navy classes as part of a much more significant mechanical re build to simplify complex parts that were tricky to maintain iirc. Such a rebuild not being necessary or worthwhile on an A4

The streamlined look of these classes was for fashion. Not performance.

 

[Bevan Price]

I thought an unrebuilt Merchant Navy would have been capable of higher speeds because of the streamlining.

Slightly off topic, but why did the A4s keep thier streamlining after the war when it was removed from the Coronations and Merchant Navys?

Some of the lower panels of A4 streamlining were removed to improve access for maintemance.

The rebuilt Merchant Navy pacifics were much more reliable than the unrebuilt locos. In particular the chain-driven valve gear of the original locos was a "weak" part of their design.

 

[Harvester]

I thought an unrebuilt Merchant Navy would have been capable of higher speeds because of the streamlining.

The MN class only had 6ft 2in driving wheels, so would struggle to achieve much over 100mph. Highest recorded for the class is 106 mph. I think only one A2 and a double chimney V2 of the 6ft 2in variety, have managed over 100mph down Stoke bank (101mph in both instances).

 

[norbitonflyer]

The Bulleid and Stanier Pacifics' streamlining was extra fairing, so relatively easy to remove, but the A4s looks to have been more integral with the boiler.

 

[contrex]

Joe Duddington was the driver who took Mallard to the world steam speed record on July 3rd 1968.

Must have been quite a sight. Was it hauling blue and grey Mark 1s?

 

[Strathclyder]

The Bulleid and Stanier Pacifics' streamlining was extra fairing, so relatively easy to remove, but the A4s looks to have been more integral with the boiler.

There's several photos out in the ethers of the internet showing a A4 (Mallard) with most of her streamlining removed.

 

[norbitonflyer]

There's several photos out in the ethers of the internet showing a A4 (Mallard) with most of her streamlining removed.

View attachment 175580

Interesting - ws there lagging in the gap between the boiler itself and the hoops supporting the streamlining?

 

[Harvester]

The Railway Performance Society archive has a log of that tour. With load 12 coaches, there were 2 signal stops between Grantham & Stoke Summit.
The summit was passed at 52mph, and 98mph was recorded downhill before it slowed on the approach to Peterborough. Given the load, that seems to have been a pretty good performance, but a long way below Mallard's speed record.

Thanks for the information, it debunks the wild claims that Bill Hoole’s 112 mph decent with 60007 was exceeded. With those signal stops and the load, 52 mph at the summit was quite credible, and with a clear run 46245 could have topped 100 mph with ease.

 

[Helvellyn]

It is quite interesting to compare the run with that of 60007 on 23/5/1959 on a Stephenson Locomotive Society special. Bill Hoole had past Grantham at 75 mph on the latter, which he held to Stoke summit without having to thrash the engine. Mallard passed the summit at 74.5 mph (not 85 mph) and both were doing just over a 100mph at Corby Glen with 60007 running the better at this stage with plenty in hand. At 112 mph a few miles further on, Bill was told to ease off by the inspectors on the footplate, when speed passed the prearranged 110 mph.

Bill was convinced that he could have had the record that day had he been allowed to go for it.

I imagine the last thing British Railways wanted in 1959, with the Modernisation Plan in full swing, was Mallard's record being broken - and by another Gresley A4 at that rather than a BR Standard.

Makes it even more impressive that Mallard's record was the UK speed record for just under 35 years until broken by the prototype HST in 1973.

 

[ThirteenArches]

Probably not the place for this, but the steam records all seem to be the maximum speed attained momentarily. Around the same time, Seagrave, the Campbells and others were setting speed records over a mile, so I wonder what the steam record is over a significant distance? Or the peak speeds attained by the various Bluebirds? None of which of course takes anything from Joe Duddington';s achievement.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Probably not the place for this, but the steam records all seem to be the maximum speed attained momentarily. Around the same time, Seagrave, the Campbells and others were setting speed records over a mile, so I wonder what the steam record is over a significant distance? Or the peak speeds attained by the various Bluebirds? None of which of course takes anything from Joe Duddington';s achievement.

Interesting article here

Fastest Steam Locomotive

............suggesting that German 05.002 achieved 124.5 for an appreciable distance (certainly more than 60 yards!), and probably 125, on level track, albeit with a lighter train. And didn't break down as a result.

 

[70014IronDuke]

With such a turnover of staff on the various railway companies these days, there will be a number who won't have a clue about Joe, Tommy or anyone else involved on the day. Sadly.

I doubt that even 0.1% of today's railways' staff know who Joe Duddington was, and probably not many more knew in 1964 when steam was more or less eliminated from the ECML, certainly where Mallard's record was achieved.

That is such a great shame. I do have reason to ask and your answer saddens me a little

I think it is very good that you take an interest in your great-grandfather and his achievments, and seek to let more people understand this.

However, you've got to be realistic. His record was achieved 87 years ago on traction that only a very small percentage of today's UK population have ever experienced under everyday conditions.

Yes, a high percentage of the public will say: "Ooooh, look, there's a steamer" if they happen to see one on a special or heritage railway, but unless you were actually with them from day to day, and usually in your childhood or teens, chances are the enthusiasm is only skin deep.

It's like footballers. Men aged 70 today will talk about George Best or Bobby Charlton or whoever from back in the 60s, but unless you experienced watching such players, it will never be the same emotional experience.

By coincidence, I came to realise this myself when only 12, and it involved an A4 on the last special run in and out of Kings Cross in October (I think) that year. My dad took me and a younger kid, I think he was about 10, to the ECML to watch 60009 Union of South Africa (I hope my memory has not mixed up the loco) pass by on the up home run. I watched as the train sped past, the glow from the firebox briefly flashing in the darkness, some glmpse of a shadowy figure on the footplate - and it was gone. For the last time. I felt part of my boyhood had gone with it. I can picure the scene today, as I write this.

But at the same time, standing there on the platform, I realised from his reaction that for the kid next to me, who had never experienced an A4 at speed as a regular sight, it just didn't mean the same thing. Yes, as a spotter, he was happy he'd come over and seen it, but it was not any great emotion. I'd been 'lucky' - I'd been trainspotting in the last three years of steam and it meant a lot more to me.

Anyway, good luck getting your great grand pop memorialised, but there are a lot of great railwaymen out there, not to mention great people of all professions, all nations and creeds. So don't get downhearted if only a few recognise the name Joe Duddington.

 

[Harvester]

I imagine the last thing British Railways wanted in 1959, with the Modernisation Plan in full swing, was Mallard's record being broken - and by another Gresley A4 at that rather than a BR Standard.

The Eastern Region management did not want the special running above 90 mph when negotiations first started with the Stephenson Locomotive Society months beforehand. P.W.B Semmens in his book ‘Bill Hoole Engineman Extraordinary’, states this was mainly because the new EE Type 4 diesels could only manage 90 mph, and it would be bad publicity to have a steam loco running considerably faster. The authorities did eventually relent, and the Civil Engineer authorised a 110 mph maximum for the run down Stoke bank. Two inspectors, Bert Dixon and Alan Pegler, accompanied Bill and his fireman Alf Hancox on the footplate, to make sure that the speed didn’t greatly exceed that maximum.

 

[Gloster]

The Eastern Region management did not want the special running above 90 mph when negotiations first started with the Stephenson Locomotive Society months beforehand. P.W.B Semmens in his book ‘Bill Hoole Engineman Extraordinary’, states this was mainly because the new EE Type 4 diesels could only manage 90 mph, and it would be bad publicity to have a steam loco running considerably faster. The authorities did eventually relent, and the Civil Engineer authorised a 110 mph maximum for the run down Stoke bank. Two inspectors, Bert Dixon and Alan Pegler, accompanied Bill and his fireman Alf Hancox on the footplate, to make sure that the speed didn’t greatly exceed that maximum.

Unless there were two Alan Peglers, he was the owner of Flying Scotsman (Hallowed be his name). He wasn’t a Traction/Locomotive Inspector, so presumably he was either an honoured guest or an independent observer.

 

[778]

Interesting article here

Fastest Steam Locomotive

............suggesting that German 05.002 achieved 124.5 for an appreciable distance (certainly more than 60 yards!), and probably 125, on level track, albeit with a lighter train. And didn't break down as a result.

The fact that both locomotives achieved near identical speeds means that maybe 126mph is the highest speed a steam locomotive can reach and it is not possible to go any faster.

If contintinous welded flat bottomed rail was around in the 30s would that have enabled higher speeds?

 

[Harvester]

Unless there were two Alan Peglers, he was the owner of Flying Scotsman (Hallowed be his name). He wasn’t a Traction/Locomotive Inspector, so presumably he was either an honoured guest or an independent observer.

Well spotted - you are correct, he wasn’t an Inspector but he was there in an official capacity. To quote P.W.B Semmens: ’Alan Pegler who, as a member of the Eastern Region Board, was personally responsible for seeing that the limit was observed, signalled to Bert Dixon, who moved across and tapped Bill on the shoulder as an indication to ease off’

 

[Sun Chariot]

The fact that both locomotives achieved near identical speeds means that maybe 126mph is the highest speed a steam locomotive can reach and it is not possible to go any faster.

I recall the catastrophic wheelslip of A2 60532 Blue Peter on Durham Viaduct, 1st October 1994. I remember one account quoted the loco's driving wheel revolutions - based on in-cab speedo reading - reaching the equivalent of 140mph; before the cylinder heads and motion self-destructed.

If that violently demonstrated "beyond the physical limits" of the mechanical parts on a main line steam loco, I do suspect 126mph was at the upper end of the safe tolerance (a melted centre bearing notwithstanding!)

 

[ThirteenArches]

"beyond the physical limits" of the mechanical parts on a main line steam loco

The conventional large- wheeled direct drive steam loco that is. The problem arises because of big rotating and reciprocating masses, only partially balanced. Should the need for higher speed have arisen with steam the predominant technology, an indirect drive, like the GWR Thunderer (!), or the Heilmann steam - electrics, or high- speed (Sentinel- style) geared multicylinder power packs with geared drive, could have had steam going at whatever can be done with small- wheeled diesels or electrics. They'd still have only been about 10 or 12% efficient though, and they wouldn't have looked a bit like Rocket or Lord of the Isles or Mallard.

 

[Rescars]

The conventional large- wheeled direct drive steam loco that is. The problem arises because of big rotating and reciprocating masses, only partially balanced. Should the need for higher speed have arisen with steam the predominant technology, an indirect drive, like the GWR Thunderer (!), or the Heilmann steam - electrics, or high- speed (Sentinel- style) geared multicylinder power packs with geared drive, could have had steam going at whatever can be done with small- wheeled diesels or electrics. They'd still have only been about 10 or 12% efficient though, and they wouldn't have looked a bit like Rocket or Lord of the Isles or Mallard.

Interesting to ponder what might have been the speed potential of Turbomotive and any successors.

 

[contrex]

Unless there were two Alan Peglers, he was the owner of Flying Scotsman (Hallowed be his name). He wasn’t a Traction/Locomotive Inspector, so presumably he was either an honoured guest or an independent observer.

Sadly missed, and honoured disgracefully late in his life.

 

[Wyrleybart]

You may wish to buy a copy of Trained by Sir Nigel Gresley, Eric Bannister.
Bert Spencer and Eric Bannister were two key members of the Gresley entourage, Bannister was involved in the record setting run
Bannister had some hair raising exploits to relate, investigating bad yawing action of the Gresley Pacifics, Bannister had a seat installed in the narrow space in the frames, as the locomotive ran at express speeds, Bannister was in the seat observing the action of the Cartazzi axle

This is quite amazing and worrying in equal measure. Presume it was under the cab floor, because the wide firebox would be over the cartazzi truck and the conjugated valve gear, inside cylinder, con rod and big end bearing would occupy the space ahead of the firebox.

 

[E27007]

Interesting article here

Fastest Steam Locomotive

............suggesting that German 05.002 achieved 124.5 for an appreciable distance (certainly more than 60 yards!), and probably 125, on level track, albeit with a lighter train. And didn't break down as a result.

Mallard is acknowledged as the world record holder ,please study the accounts of USA Pennsy T1 4-4-4-4 duplex express passenger steam locos, introduced in the late 1940s,therefore more advanced in mechanical design over Mallard,the T1 was designed to cruise at 100mph hauling 1000+ ton service passenger trains with a capacity to sprint at 125mph, Think of a scenario of a T1 running late with a half-load train and a top- class crew, in your mind does Mallard still hold the Blue Riband?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Mar 2025 ==

This is quite amazing and worrying in equal measure. Presume it was under the cab floor, because the wide firebox would be over the cartazzi truck and the conjugated valve gear, inside cylinder, con rod and big end bearing would occupy the space ahead of the firebox.

Close, the valve gear and connecting rod and inside cylinder are under the smokebox,

 

[Taunton]

This is quite amazing and worrying in equal measure. Presume it was under the cab floor, because the wide firebox would be over the cartazzi truck and the conjugated valve gear, inside cylinder, con rod and big end bearing would occupy the space ahead of the firebox.

Any worse that someone in an Indicator Shelter stuck on the front between the buffers? Did they sit or stand there?

Picture here:

http://www.traintesting.com/images/7916%20Wantage%20Road.jpg

 

[Gloster]

Any worse that someone in an Indicator Shelter stuck on the front between the buffers? Did they sit or stand there?

Picture here:

http://www.traintesting.com/images/7916%20Wantage%20Road.jpg

I read somewhere that they had a folding stool, but they still had to brace themselves. Presumably it was a high stool and relaxing on that when hitting a set of points would be ill-advised.

 

[Rescars]

Trying to work taking readings whilst sitting on a fishing stool in a garden shed attached to the very front of a hard-working loco can't have been for the fainthearted!

 

[Spamcan81]

Mallard is acknowledged as the world record holder ,please study the accounts of USA Pennsy T1 4-4-4-4 duplex express passenger steam locos, introduced in the late 1940s,therefore more advanced in mechanical design over Mallard,the T1 was designed to cruise at 100mph hauling 1000+ ton service passenger trains with a capacity to sprint at 125mph, Think of a scenario of a T1 running late with a half-load train and a top- class crew, in your mind does Mallard still hold the Blue Riband?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Mar 2025 ==


Close, the valve gear and connecting rod and inside cylinder are under the smokebox,

The T1 speed record claims were debated at length on an American forum and level headed enthusiasts dismissed them as fanciful.