I've lost faith in the bus industry

[Busaholic]

The idea that hundreds of thousands of pensioners are whizzing up and down the motorways and dual carriageways to get a change of scenery every day, all on free passes, belongs with the proposition that all the Eastern Europeans brought in to pick veg in Lincolnshire or Cornwall are depriving the local population of the opportunity to slave in fields for minimum wage (if they're lucky). In most English areas, the pass use does not begin until 9.30 a.m., there are no 'express' routes (often no motorways, come to that) and, even where there are, pass use can be restricted. It takes 90 to 120 minutes to get from Penzance to Truro by bus, as against 40 minutes on the train, so only somebody who's lost all sense of feeling in their body or really can't afford the (quite low) train fare would choose that way. It is useful for hospital appointments as the bus stops near (but not in) the hospital grounds, whereas the station is a fair distance away. I use my pass rarely, as I am lucky enough to be able to run a modest car, and, bus lover though I may be, hardly ever go for a free ride for the sake of it, with the sole exception of an open-top ride which I sometimes take in September, just before it is withdrawn, but that's not even every year. When you have aches and pains, which most over-65s do, bus travel is not necessarily a comfortable experience, exacerbated by the poor standard of seating on many modern buses.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Its reasuring to know that not all areas are full of freeloading pass holders, however whilst I aknoledg that my comments have offended some I will not on this occasion withdraw them as it is a problem in some parts of the country. ENCTS is a better system in terms of this although not perfect as it doesnt include long distance coach travel like the Scottish one and there is abuse here on routes with quite high walkup fares.

I stick by my comments that the industry would be better placed to innovate without this burden.

 

[6Gman]

I have lost my faith in the current system, I can;t see how I can get it back.

I've heard how bad the old national way of doing things, but what I've seen of late is beyond idiotic and it's clearly incompetent.

Has anyone else lost faith or did it come back or what?

I'm really starting to think we need to PTE contract system.

Not sure what you're even trying to say here.

What do you mean by "the old national way of doing things" for example?

The NBC? That was pretty short-lived, and only ever operated part of the network.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

The real abuse isn't coming from the pensioners I'd say, but the fact that they are handing out these bus passes to drug addicts and alcoholics. They really need to crack down on all these "disabilities" that are being included in the concession scheme, because I'm sure a good load of them shouldn't be there. Note how you see a lot of young people have these passes too, and I mean the actual concession cards, not the 1/3rd off single fare cards.

The issuing of the disabled travel pass should be means tested so that only those who are disabled in the way of:

- being wheelchair bound for long periods.
- those who have limited or no eye sight whatsoever.
- those who have a genuine learning disablity such as autism or aspergers.
- those who have lost function of all limbs.

It would not cover those who are:

- fat (through excessive consumption of food rendering them morbidly obese.)
- snowflakes (those who have had their feeling hurt and need a safe space.)
- lazy & bone idle (basically scamming the scheme through fake illness or injury - yet its possible that they would be able to play a round of golf, lay a patio and do other physical work).

I suspect the young 'uns are probably the second and third points who shouldn't be covered. Harsh I know, but its a start to properly weed out those who are taking advantage of the system.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

There's different types of ENCTS users. Some rarely use a bus and just have an ENCTS pass for emergencies but at the other extreme there's some who try to make as many bus journeys as possible. One lady in her 90s who does that in Cheshire literally travels from one end of the bus route to the other then immediately goes straight back and repeats the process 3 times a day and most days per week - it seems she just likes riding the bus and talking to other passengers. It wouldn't matter to her if that bus route was withdrawn as she could do exactly the same thing on another route. Yet for most people where buses go to does matter.

There is or was someone round my way who did similar, all they did was jump on the bus to the centre of Huddersfield before boarding either the 900 / 901 to Hebden Bridge or the 951 to Glossop and then return back on the return working.

I do recall one driver stating to the passenger that they had to get off and board the next one as the driver didn't want them to be riding around all day at the expense of others. Funnily enough the following week they were heading to Buxton before heading back around three hours later.

Sadly the 951 isn't running this year so if it doesn't run in 2018 then I'm guessing that the service has been quietly withdrawn which is a shame as it was a popular route for walkers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm really starting to think we need to PTE contract system.

Well, that will be happening in Greater Manchester so we will see how it goes.

For cities I would like to see a single cross-mode fares system. Though as London doesn't...

 

[Bletchleyite]

The system was designed to win the grey vote! It's a stupid, cynical and completely unaffordable idea, that was intended from the outset to shaft the bus operators. If it really, really must exist, then it should be means tested. Ideally though, it just shouldn't exist.

I'm happy for it to exist, but the concept only works with public revenue risk.

 

[MCR247]

- snowflakes (those who have had their feeling hurt and need a safe space.)

What exactly do you mean by this?

 

[Deerfold]

It would not cover those who are:

- fat (through excessive consumption of food rendering them morbidly obese.)
- snowflakes (those who have had their feeling hurt and need a safe space.)
- lazy & bone idle (basically scamming the scheme through fake illness or injury - yet its possible that they would be able to play a round of golf, lay a patio and do other physical work).

I suspect the young 'uns are probably the second and third points who shouldn't be covered. Harsh I know, but its a start to properly weed out those who are taking advantage of the system.

I'm not aware that any of these qualify you for a pass. If you are aware of anyone scamming the system, I suspect there are bigger problems than ENTCS use.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For me personally, the bus just simply isn't viable because I have the Metro, and the frequency of buses is something that puts me off. I know the Metro is every 12-15 minutes, whereas the bus is more every 15-30 minutes (for most people it's not even that). If I just miss a bus I must wait 30 minutes on an evening, if I just miss the Metro, it's half that time and the Metro is quicker.

But that's absolutely fine - and in Germany, say, you'd be unlikely to even have a bus option, as you have rail!

In cities, the things buses do well is shuttling people to the nearest high capacity rapid transit railway station. Now, I'm not calling for ridiculous cases like the Gateshead example, but sensible planning and integrated ticketing and timetabling so changing from bus to/from rail is not actively penalised.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And they won't do anything about it because it would cost the ruling party a good load of votes...although their other blunders have already done that anyway.

Does anyone know if any of the manifestos of the main parties made a commitment to withdraw the ENCTS system in England?

 

[KendalKing]

The issuing of the disabled travel pass should be means tested so that only those who are disabled in the way of:

- being wheelchair bound for long periods.
- those who have limited or no eye sight whatsoever.
- those who have a genuine learning disablity such as autism or aspergers.
- those who have lost function of all limbs.

It would not cover those who are:

- fat (through excessive consumption of food rendering them morbidly obese.)
- snowflakes (those who have had their feeling hurt and need a safe space.)
- lazy & bone idle (basically scamming the scheme through fake illness or injury - yet its possible that they would be able to play a round of golf, lay a patio and do other physical work).

I suspect the young 'uns are probably the second and third points who shouldn't be covered. Harsh I know, but its a start to properly weed out those who are taking advantage of the system.

My wife is registered disable, she got a disable person railcard, yet she can't a disable person bus pass. What annoys me, is how people you are not registered disable, can get a disable person bus pass.

 

[carlberry]

There is or was someone round my way who did similar, all they did was jump on the bus to the centre of Huddersfield before boarding either the 900 / 901 to Hebden Bridge or the 951 to Glossop and then return back on the return working.

I do recall one driver stating to the passenger that they had to get off and board the next one as the driver didn't want them to be riding around all day at the expense of others. Funnily enough the following week they were heading to Buxton before heading back around three hours later.

Sadly the 951 isn't running this year so if it doesn't run in 2018 then I'm guessing that the service has been quietly withdrawn which is a shame as it was a popular route for walkers.

What does this driver think his bus is for if it isnt riding around on? It's nice that he feels he can just ignore the law and make up his own. It does appear to have had the desired effect however as, by driving all the passsengers away, the bus has disappeared!

 

[NorthernSpirit]

What exactly do you mean by this?

What I mean by snowflakes, is that most want their own way by using feelings then their brain and as such most of the young will claim that they their feeling have been hurt because in reality they are milking the system including the obtaining of a National Pass under false pretences for a faux injury.

I'm not aware that any of these qualify you for a pass. If you are aware of anyone scamming the system, I suspect there are bigger problems than ENTCS use.

You do get some people who will claim for a long term injury and may well claim for a National Pass because of their "long term injury" and as I described above that the said person could be out playing golf, on a tennis court or doing manual work yet there isn't actually wrong with them.

Its where the means testing would come into use to cut down on false claiments who would simply apply for a National Pass just because they can then travel for free.

What does this driver think his bus is for if it isnt riding around on? It's nice that he feels he can just ignore the law and make up his own. It does appear to have had the desired effect however as, by driving all the passsengers away, the bus has disappeared!

This happened on the last year that Centrebus ran it (2013) so it would have been one of the more miserable members of staff on the rota who have runied it for everyone else. One of their drivers thought that they were Jackie Stewart the way they were ragging a Solo down Holme Moss at 50 mph.

It has to be said that Tates (despite the fleet being knackered) and LOT were much better at running the 951 and in the case with LOT properly customer focused who looked after their passengers, I do think that in 2016 it brought in more people who used the service including the OAP who was asked to board the next one from Centrebus days - as I told the OAP that its a new operator that's running it and the driver is much more customer focused.

 

[danorak]

No major party suggested scrapping the bus pass - as we saw with the reaction to the 'dementia tax' & winter fuel payments, it would have been suicidal. There were proposals to extend free travel to some younger groups though.

Means testing would be a sledgehammer to crack a nut. You'd be setting up a bureaucracy that would cost more than it saved. The rules about disabled people's bus passes are you can get one if:

you’re blind or partially sighted, deaf or unable to speak
you can’t walk very far because of a disability, illness or injury
you don’t have arms or can’t use your arms
you have a severe learning disability
you’ve been refused a driving licence because of your health (but not because of problems with drugs or alcohol)

Some local authorities use their discretionary powers to go further.

 

[Stan Drews]

Valid point on town centres, however the large out of town retail and increasingly leisure developments are booming. We need to concentrate on making bus travel to such places accessible, affordable, attractive and efficient. This means realistic journey times, running buses right into and through sites either to central station/interchange or multiple stops on say a large retail park over large areas and not just stopping on a main road. It also involves services when needed and at a good price.

You've nailed it, ...they're OUT OF TOWN. Therefore impossible to serve as efficiently from all parts of town and the surrounding areas. So whilst a PVR of 10 might be able to provide a regular network of services directly accessing a traditional town centre, you find that you'd need far more resource to maintain the same level of direct links to an out of town location. Add in the fact that some people will still want to go to the traditional town centre and you end up with reduced frequencies and maybe one 'lucky' route that goes to the out of town centre. Effectively it all becomes less attractive, and so the downward spiral continues.
Without a significant change in the way such developments are designed/planned and sufficient funding available to provide the regular/frequent public transport links, nothing is likely to change anytime soon - deregulated; regulated; franchised; or nationalised.

 

[GusB]

The issuing of the disabled travel pass should be means tested so that only those who are disabled in the way of:

- being wheelchair bound for long periods.
- those who have limited or no eye sight whatsoever.
- those who have a genuine learning disablity such as autism or aspergers.
- those who have lost function of all limbs.

It would not cover those who are:

- fat (through excessive consumption of food rendering them morbidly obese.)
- snowflakes (those who have had their feeling hurt and need a safe space.)
- lazy & bone idle (basically scamming the scheme through fake illness or injury - yet its possible that they would be able to play a round of golf, lay a patio and do other physical work).

I suspect the young 'uns are probably the second and third points who shouldn't be covered. Harsh I know, but its a start to properly weed out those who are taking advantage of the system.

What about those with hidden disabilities, particularly mental health conditions? Or do you automatically put them in the "snowflake" category?

I haven't researched the T&Cs of the other UK concessionary travel schemes, only that which is local to me, ie the Scottish scheme:

https://www.transport.gov.scot/concessionary-travel/60plus-and-disabled/

Eligibility

Over 60s eligibility

To be eligible for the NEC, you must be:

Aged 60 or older
A resident of Scotland


Disabled people eligibility

If you're a resident in Scotland, aged five or over and meet one of the following criteria, you're entitled to free bus travel with the National Entitlement Card:

You receive the higher rate of the mobility component or the higher or middle rate of the care component of Disability Living Allowance, you receive Attendance Allowance or you receive Personal Independence Payment. Take along a copy of your award letter from the DWP confirming your eligibility. The letter must be dated within the last 12 months. For details on getting your letter, please contact the Disability benefits helpline.
You live in a care/residential home or hospital and are eligible for the higher or middle rate of the care component of Disability Living Allowance, or Personal Independence Payment or Attendance Allowance. You will need a letter from the hospital/care home confirming that you live there and receive 24 hour care
You are a Blue Badge holder. Take your Blue Badge, latest V11 vehicle licensing reminder from DVLA or DLA404 from the Department of Work and Pensions when you apply for your card.
You are profoundly or severely deaf. Take along a recent letter from your Audiologist, Hospital Consultant or Registered Society for the Deaf when you apply. The letter must show that you have bilateral hearing loss greater than or equal to 70dBHLs averaged over 1, 2 and 4KHz. If you have been deaf since birth, a letter from your GP confirming this is fine too.
You have a sight impairment. Bring your registration certificate that confirms you are severely sight impaired (blind) or sight impaired (partially sighted) when you apply for your card. A letter from the RNIB or other registered society is also acceptable.
You have been told not to drive based on medical grounds. Take the DVLA confirmation letter as evidence when you apply showing that your licence has been revoked or your application has been refused on medical grounds. If you have epilepsy and been told not to drive because you have had a seizure in the last 12 months, you should use the NCT003 certificate. The NCT003 certificate is only valid where the applicant is 16yrs and over (the earliest date they can apply for a provisional licence). Collect the certificate from your Local Authority and ask your Hospital Consultant, GP or Epilepsy Specialist Nurse to sign. For other medical conditions where you have been told you would not be allowed to drive and if you were to apply for a licence, would be refused, you may be able to provide a recent letter from your GP or Hospital Consultant depending on your circumstances to confirm this. For further information, please check with your local authority.
You have a mental health condition that is recognised under the Mental Health (Care and Treatment) (Scotland) Act 2003 and has lasted for more than a year. You must need to travel to health or social care appointments as part of treatment activities, care or a rehabilitation programme. Your ability to travel must also be impaired. Please contact your Local Authority for advice on how and where to apply.
If you have a learning disability and you need to travel to see a Support Worker or get to appointments or activities you will need to get a NCT002a form.
Read our guide on how to apply
You have a terminal illness. Take your award notice that shows you receive higher or middle rate of Disability Living Allowance or Attendance Allowance when you apply. A DS1500 report, hospice admittance letter or confirmation that you are registered on a Scottish hospice register is also acceptable.
You have a progressive degenerative condition. Conditions such as Parkinson's Disease that impede your mobility entitle you to free bus travel. Ask your hospital consultant to provide a letter confirming that your condition is considered ‘progressive degenerative' and that it severely impedes your mobility and ability to carry out day to day activities . Any letter from a medical professional must clearly state this.
You have lost one or more limbs. If you have lost one or both legs, both arms or an arm and a leg you are entitled to free bus travel. Request a letter from your prosthetic clinic/centre, physiotherapist or rehabilitation centre for your application.
You are an injured veteran with mobility problems. See the Armed Forces Compensation Scheme page for more details.
If you receive a War Pensioner Mobility Supplement you are also eligible. Please provide a letter from the Veterans Agency or Ministry of Defence in your application.

Reading through that, it would seem that some kind of proof is required in order to be able to apply for a pass, so they're clearly not handed out like sweets.

What if someone is fat? You may well see a bone-lazy, idle person on the surface, but there may well be some underlying medical condition causing it. You simply cannot tell by looking at a person.

My mum has bipolar disorder which has prevented her from having any kind of career throughout her life. It hasn't prevented her from working, but the episodic nature of the condition has prevented her from being able to take up employment, and on more than one occasion has forced her to leave employment.

Although she now qualifies as an over-60, she has had a concession card for quite a long time now. As well as using it to travel to and from her regular hospital appointments and self-help group meetings, she will occasionally use it for a journey into town simply to get her out of the house. In the grand scheme of things, it's far cheaper than a few weeks in the local psych ward.

Should she have been denied this particular benefit?

 

[Blindtraveler]

Mental health/hidden disabilitties awareness is much better these days so no I dont think they would be filed under S for Snowflake and Gus's Mum falls into this section. The awarding of passeds on the Scottish system is certainly better than it used to be in terms of proofs etc but sounds like elsewhere this may not be so.

I was talking on FB to a friend with a pssing interest in buses and put this possibly losing faith in the industry thing to him. His reaction was along the lines of the passholder discussion too but he also mentioned the possibility of office based graduate managers with mo working coleface experience of the sector being partly responsible for some bad decisions and also pointed out (like we needed reminding) that the public perseption of bus travel, already somewhat blited by the potential for loads of twirlys wasnt helped by the Lochead eara at First, the old bus shuddering round towns pre investment eara at Arriva and is further hampered still by cowboy opperaters who iether run tneders, schools or god forbid comercial services very badly! Any 1 or a combination of these factors is simply a great piece of advertising for the nearest car dealership and so less people need buses and the whole thing goes round again.

 

[D2007wsm]

In this area Concessionary Bus Passes are valid from 09:00. I commute to work and up to a change in working hours last year, I used to travel to work around 09:00. The 09:13 bus was timetabled to arrive with plenty of time to spare. Yet I very rarely used this service because as it started at 09:00 it was the first bus holders of Concessioary Bus Passes could travel on. By the time it arrived at my stop, 10 minutes down the road it was nearly always late and full with holders of Concessionary Bus Passes after stopping at every stop to pick them up. Resulting in having to stand for nearly an hour on a long distance service. I soon learnt to catch the 08:53 which was 99% of the time on time and I always got a seat. On arrival at the Bus Station at the other end of the route, the queue of pass holders waiting to go back at around 10:00 was always long and would regularly overload a double decker. This was more evident on a sunny day.

The sad fact is a lot of holders of these passes do use them for the sake of it, working in transport we regularly get asked by holders where they can go on their pass for something to do and some get quite upset when they are told they can't use them on certain services, in particular National Express or Airport services.

There is a lady round here who gets on a town service several times of day, travels to the end of the route, sits on the bus and gets off on the way back the opposite side of the road to wear she got on. When asked by a driver why she does this, her reply was she doesn't like crossing the road.

I think a contribution by the passenger should be made as before the introduction of the scheme and Senior Citizens paid half fair, there were far more town bus services in operation which were always full.This was still The case when The free travel was only for local residents. The fare of the journey I make for just over 20 miles is £6 single, yet the company receive around £1 for each pass holder carried.

 

[BestWestern]

Is there still the daily ritual of the 8.59 brigade, who despite having the entire day will insist on routinely arguing the toss with drivers to try and catch a bus that they know very well they aren't entitled to travel on?

 

[NorthernSpirit]

What about those with hidden disabilities, particularly mental health conditions? Or do you automatically put them in the "snowflake" category?

I haven't researched the T&Cs of the other UK concessionary travel schemes, only that which is local to me, ie the Scottish scheme...

I'm going off the English scheme, as I mentioned that hidden disabilities / mental health conditions would be covered under the Learning Disability part.

If someone has really bad asthma they too would be covered under the first part with points one and four (as some may find it easier going about in a wheelchair than to struggle walking because they have weak lungs).

Mental health/hidden disabilitties awareness is much better these days so no I dont think they would be filed under S for Snowflake and Gus's Mum falls into this section. The awarding of passeds on the Scottish system is certainly better than it used to be in terms of proofs etc but sounds like elsewhere this may not be so.

It varies in England, some councils will issue passes en mass others will want to see proof.

Take South Yorkshire for instance, it was the only place in England that offered free rail travel for the average South Yorkshire pensioner until SYPTE scrapped the offer cue a load of pensioners acting somewhat as children in Sheffield railway station demanding that they want their free rail travel returned which got them nowhere apart from being cuffed under Section 5 - Nowhere else offered free rail travel just South Yorkshire.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

No major party suggested scrapping the bus pass - as we saw with the reaction to the 'dementia tax' & winter fuel payments, it would have been suicidal. There were proposals to extend free travel to some younger groups though.

Means testing would be a sledgehammer to crack a nut. You'd be setting up a bureaucracy that would cost more than it saved. The rules about disabled people's bus passes are you can get one if:

you’re blind or partially sighted, deaf or unable to speak
you can’t walk very far because of a disability, illness or injury
you don’t have arms or can’t use your arms
you have a severe learning disability
you’ve been refused a driving licence because of your health (but not because of problems with drugs or alcohol)

Some local authorities use their discretionary powers to go further.

I know of someone who got their disabled ENCT pass as they were autistic and were refused a driving licence on the grounds that they could have an autistic fit at the wheel which would risk them and others injury through no fault of their own but because of their disability.

So much so they got one so that a companion can go with them.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

The real abuse isn't coming from the pensioners I'd say, but the fact that they are handing out these bus passes to drug addicts and alcoholics. They really need to crack down on all these "disabilities" that are being included in the concession scheme, because I'm sure a good load of them shouldn't be there. Note how you see a lot of young people have these passes too, and I mean the actual concession cards, not the 1/3rd off single fare cards.

People who are meidcally disqualified from holding a Dirving licence can apply for a disability pass, as can those who are eligible for a 'blue badge' ...

most of the people i know of who aren't blue badge holders but have a disability pass are one of the following groups:

1. Visually impaired ( and thus medically disqualified from driving)

2. People with seizure disorders ( such as epilepsy) whose control is such that they are medically disqualified

3. People with serious enduring mental health conditions wherhe either their condition or the side effects of the meds they need to live some kind of functional life make them medically disqualified from driving, in the opinion of their GP and /or Consultant Psychiatrist.

i would suspect that in fact some of those you label as Alcoholics fall into group 2 above, and that the 'drug addicts' fall into group 3

but then again casual discrimination against the disabled is still one ofthe least unacceptable forms of discrimination in the minds of those who hold 3 or 4 of the main priveliges ...

 

[AnonymousUser1]

How many years will need to pass until you are entitled to such a pass?

Means testing is something that will cost a small fortune to set up and administer.

cash equivalent allownace on the cards would have been the easiest way to deal with 'abuse' of the scheme ...

365 return journies on the card and go over that you pay ata modest discount from the normal fare.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In this area Concessionary Bus Passes are valid from 09:00.

The starting entitlement time is 0930 Monday to Friday inclusive in many other areas, which stops any free travel when commuters are travelling.

 

[northwichcat]

No major party suggested scrapping the bus pass - as we saw with the reaction to the 'dementia tax' & winter fuel payments, it would have been suicidal. There were proposals to extend free travel to some younger groups though.

I wonder if at some point Labour will propose a low income bus pass which their over 60 voters would likely qualify for meaning they could then scrap the 'bus pass for all pensioners' policy without losing votes.

 

[overthewater]

I'm rather disgusted with some of view on this hijacked thread. There are some issues with the scheme but the way its turn is just incomprehensible.

 

[northwichcat]

The starting entitlement time is 0930 Monday to Friday inclusive in many other areas, which stops any free travel when commuters are travelling.

Free travel starts at 09:30 but in some areas (including in Cheshire) you get reduced price travel if you present a ENCTS card before 09:30. On a few occasions I've been on buses where a pensioner has forgotten about free travel only being after 09:30 on weekdays and when the driver asks for a fare of 75p to £2 and says they can get off and wait for the next one if they want to travel for free, the ENCTS holder never seems to take the option of getting off and waiting for the next bus.

 

[D2007wsm]

The starting entitlement time is 0930 Monday to Friday inclusive in many other areas, which stops any free travel when commuters are travelling.

In most areas, but here it is 09:00

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I was talking on FB to a friend with a pssing interest in buses and put this possibly losing faith in the industry thing to him. His reaction was along the lines of the passholder discussion too but he also mentioned the possibility of office based graduate managers with mo working coleface experience of the sector being partly responsible for some bad decisions

I've deliberately not responded to this thread as the click bait nature of the title seemed a bit like Mrs Merton's "Let's have a heated debate" with so much pseudo science, misrepresentation of statistics etc - it's been like the bloody Euro referendum!

However, the highlighted comment cannot be allowed to pass. It is plain wrong and spectacularly so.

Firstly, the whole "coalface" thing is always questionable - should we insist that a doctor after spending X number of years qualifying etc then spend two years as a nurse?

Now, I was one such person who studied on a transport course and three of my peers are now middle managers in the industry. They have worked across many different groups, for public and private bodies, etc. All of them joined as graduate trainee managers and all had to take their test. They all have done their stint, doing lousy shifts, as well as the "all hands to the pumps" jobs like major events and rail replacements etc.

They do that and work for years before getting close to any decision making and that has been the way of it for years.

I nearly joined a bus company but decided against it because of the money; there are more lucrative places than to work for a bus company and those who do it are generally enthusiasts and are closely wedded to growing the industry.

People do make mistakes but not wantonly and people seldom see or understand the reasons behind decisions being taken. Of course, as we see on this thread and to quote the late George Burns "Too bad that all the people who know how to run the country are busy driving taxicabs and cutting hair." - all these experts in the industry who have studied and worked across the industry are nothing compared to those people looking in who haven't.

Rant over