i've just spoken with a greater anglia train officer

[emily369]

i need some advice understanding what's just happened. i was pulled over by a train officer at liverpool street this morning who checked my ticket which was not correct. i had bought a ticket that was 2 stops up from my normal station which was not correct and cheaper than it should've been. i have done this before when i get on and forget to buy my ticket on the app in advance, and this has happened quite a few times. i explained it to a ticket officer aboard the train a few weeks ago and she said it was fine so i didn't think much of it, but now realise that it's out of line.

the officer took down all of my details and looked back at my previous tickets, and said greater anglia are going to write me a letter about a court summons. i was so panicked i really thought i was under arrest or something and was crying my absolute eyes out. she said the letter will come and it will have a payment i need to pay. i'm just incredibly panicked about it all and wondering what this means, is this a criminal record? will i be taken to court? if i pay the amount they send will i not have to go to court? please help i'm absolutely shaken up by it all

 

[signed]

Nothing really to worry about until you get a letter (likely in a months time but can be longer, make sure you monitor your mail, even if you're out, ask a family/friend to get it for you) asking for your side (when you recieve it, please post it here with your informations and references censored).

After you respond asking for a settlment (please do not respond in a hurry), then you may either be going to court (and likely get convicted with a big fine), or be offered a lump-sum Out of Court settlement for the full undiscounted Anytime fare you dodged + ~£150 in admin fees.

In the meantime, start paying your fares appropriately, your ticketing history will likely be reviewed.

 

[emily369]

thank you for this. just so i'm clear, if i do have to go to court, is this a criminal record? and when you say a big fine do you have any idea how much?

thank you

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2024 ==

also, is it likely to be offered an out of court settlement? is this something they usually do or not?

 

[signed]

if i do have to go to court, is this a criminal record?

If convicted, you will have a criminal record yes (and don't pay much attention to the first letter, it is knowingly in threatening language, you are EXTREMELY unlikely to go to prison for example)

 

[emily369]

i just can't stop panicking about it all, this is super new to me and i'm having an absolute panic attack right now. does a criminal record last forever? and why would people go to prison for it like what are the rules for that?

 

[signed]

@Hadders has broken up the added costs when being found guilty in court :

- A fine based on income (normally discounted for pleading guilty)
- A surcharge of 40% of the value of the fine
- Compensation for the fare avoided
- A contribution towards GA's court costs

would people go to prison for it like what are the rules for that?

It can happen for real industrial-scale dodgers or dodger rings (prosecuted as fraud), but for that you will never end up in prison

 

[emily369]

thank you for responding so quickly this is helping me calm down a lot. do you have any idea of costs people have been charged for this previously, like could you provide me with a low to high range of what it could be? i will absolutely never ever be getting the wrong ticket again i have been scared for life from today. what is a dodger ring or an industrial scale dodger sorry?

 

[signed]

what is a dodger ring or an industrial scale dodger sorry?

People dodging for years, for a massive amount of money (like ten of thousands...) or doing it in groups (like by doctoring tickets...)

like could you provide me with a low to high range of what it could be?

Out of court (the likely outcome) you can get a rough estimate by taking the Anytime undiscounted single fare (a return = 2 singles) you should have paid (i.e. from your normal station), multiply it by the number of instances you short fared and add £150 for the admin fees
For court, the formula is in #6

The estimate is rough, because they may only be able to go after you for that unique occasion and not the other (that would be unlikely if you get your tickets online, but you can come back here for advice once you recieve the letter)

 

[emily369]

thank you again, and can you just tell me the difference between people getting taken to court and people being offered the out of court thing? also if they did write and say i was going to court, is it something i can respond back and say i will pay any amount etc?

final question sorry i think you mentioned already, but when can i expect to receive a letter from them after seeing them this morning?

 

[Haywain]

and why would people go to prison for it like what are the rules for that?

You cannot be sent to prison for a first conviction - the sentencing guidelines are clear on this. There would need to be other offences, such as assault, and severe aggravating circumstances.

When you receive a letter from Greater Anglia, which may take several weeks, you can post a copy here and we can advise on what to say in your reply. In the meantime you can calculate what the fares are that you should have paid (not just the difference) which will give you an idea of how much an out of court settlement might costs you. But don't panic, this is not a life changing matter and if convicted you will only have a criminal record for a year, for the purposes of most careers.

 

[signed]

but when can i expect to receive a letter from them after seeing them this morning?

A rough estimate would be in a months time give or take, but it can take as long as 6 months

between people getting taken to court and people being offered the out of court thing?

Getting taken to court means you will get a criminal record and a sizable fine. Out of Court settlment means that in exchange for money, they will end all action and you won't go to court.

if they did write and say i was going to court, is it something i can respond back and say i will pay any amount etc?

The first letter will not be a court summons, it will be asking, to which you must answer, your side of the story

If you scour the forum, you will find many examples of such letters, and how to respond (but again, please post it on your thread for personnalized advice)

 

[Haywain]

The first letter will not be a court summons, it will be a Verification Letter,

It won't be a verification letter - that is what TfL send out.

 

[signed]

It won't be a verification letter - that is what TfL send out.

Right

 

[emily369]

thank you for this. can you just explain the difference between cases that get taken to court versus those that are allowed to settle outside of court? will it make any difference at all to my case that i have a 16-25 rail card or not?

 

[Haywain]

can you just explain the difference between cases that get taken to court versus those that are allowed to settle outside of court?

Generally, whether or not you cooperate with the train company.

will it make any difference at all to my case that i have a 16-25 rail card or not?

No.

 

[SuspectUsual]

can you just explain the difference between cases that get taken to court versus those that are allowed to settle outside of court?

For what you've described, it is highly unlikely that you'll be taken to court. Its much more likely you'll be offered an out of court settlement.

However, this can't be guaranteed - the railway company is entitled to take you to court for what you've been caught doing - but from what we see this level of fare evasion generally results in an offer to settle out of court

But for completeness:

- this is based on what you've told us. If there's other stuff you haven't disclosed, they may make a different decision

- this assumes you cooperate with them when they get in touch (ie answering all the questions they ask you 100% honestly)

- if you do get offered an out of court settlement you'll have a limited period (2 or 3 weeks) to pay it in full

 

[WesternLancer]

thank you for responding so quickly this is helping me calm down a lot. do you have any idea of costs people have been charged for this previously, like could you provide me with a low to high range of what it could be? i will absolutely never ever be getting the wrong ticket again i have been scared for life from today. what is a dodger ring or an industrial scale dodger sorry?

What I don't think has been explained yet is fully what you need to expect - as this all happens in stages (have a look at some other threads eg involving people from Greater Anglia who have been stopped like you have to get an idea).

But it sounds like you have been committing 2 ticketing offences are far as the railway are concerned.

a) buying a ticket after you board a train (this is not permitted, even if you are buying a ticket from the correct station you departed from - you MUST 'buy before you board' - but people often do not realise this and thus make this error as a genuine mistake)
and
b) Short faring - buying a ticket from a station closer to your destination than where you started your journey. Obviously this is a deliberate action to pay less than the fare you should have paid, and if you consider it from the railways point of view marks you out as a deliberate fare evader.

Due to the laws on railway ticketing these are actually criminal offences, which is why the person who stopped you would have mentioned court action - but with help and advice from here there is a good chance that can be avoided.

You also need to be aware:

c) now they have got your details they will almost certainly look at your online ticket buying accounts to see how often you have done things like this before, as they will likely want paying for that. So depending on how often you have done it that will give you an idea of the sort of money they will likely want from you.

In the first instance you need to wait for a letter from them (or perhaps an e-mail) but it is VITAL that you respond to that to try to avoid court action so you need to watch out for that, including in your spam folder.

Then people here can advise you on how to respond to that to seek to achieve the least worst outcome (ie try to avoid being prosecuted in court where you would almost certainly be found guilty as you probably admitted you did not have a valid ticket on the occasion when you were stopped).

It's highly unlikely that what you understand the Inspector told you as you have posted here will happen in quite the way you outline - ie I do not think they will just send you a letter asking you for a sum of money to pay, the payment of which will then resolve all this. Just saying this to hep you know more about what will happen - it's not a reason for you to be unduly worried.

Going forward things you can do now are:
1) make sure you 100% buy correct tickets for all train travel including buying the ticket before you get on the train. Check ticket at station if you are unsure
2) consider if there is some way you can legitimately reduce the price of your travel eg buy a season or flexi season ticket. This can be something you can then tell them you have done to help convince them that you have 'learned a lesson and changed your ways' - which is what they want to be sure of.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

Just to piece together what's been said above:

You won't be going to prison for this.

What happens next is that Greater Anglia will write to you in the next few weeks, the letter will use quite threatening language and say they have received a report and are considering prosecuting. The letter will ask for your version of events before they decide how to proceed. The suggested points to put in your reply have already been mentioned above so I won't repeat them again.

Greater Anglia are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) to people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company is within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court if they want to.

If you are offered a settlement expect to have to pay the cost of the outstanding fares at the full Anytime rate in addition to an admin fee, typically around £150. You will need to be in a position to pay the settlement in full within a few days of it being offered, payment in installments isn't normally allowed. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

From what you've told us you've been evading your fares on a large scale, Greater ANglia will audit your online ticket purchase history and will factor this when calculating the settlement amount.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter once it arrives (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[emily369]

thank you for all of your advice. i had one additional question. i use trainline to purchase my tickets, and have had an account on there for many years now. i've always purchased tickets, but i'm anxious there's been a few occasions these have been from two stops down the line or at a later time in the day as mentioned before, to reduce the price on days where i've struggled. do greater anglia speak with trainline in regards to these cases? the officer i spoke with looked at my previous tickets, and saw occasions where it had happened before, i just wondered how this will tie in to the case

 

[Haywain]

do greater anglia speak with trainline in regards to these cases?

Yes, they do.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

thank you for all of your advice. i had one additional question. i use trainline to purchase my tickets, and have had an account on there for many years now. i've always purchased tickets, but i'm anxious there's been a few occasions these have been from two stops down the line or at a later time in the day as mentioned before, to reduce the price on days where i've struggled. do greater anglia speak with trainline in regards to these cases? the officer i spoke with looked at my previous tickets, and saw occasions where it had happened before, i just wondered how this will tie in to the case

As mentioned by @Hadders and probably further upthread as well, Greater Anglia will be able to access all of your on-line transactions - Trainline will share the information with them

Not much you can do now until you receive the letter in the post

 

[WesternLancer]

thank you for all of your advice. i had one additional question. i use trainline to purchase my tickets, and have had an account on there for many years now. i've always purchased tickets, but i'm anxious there's been a few occasions these have been from two stops down the line or at a later time in the day as mentioned before, to reduce the price on days where i've struggled. do greater anglia speak with trainline in regards to these cases? the officer i spoke with looked at my previous tickets, and saw occasions where it had happened before, i just wondered how this will tie in to the case

see my point (C) in post #17 above.

 

[emily369]

Thank you. I’ve seen a few posts on here mentioning that the officer that stopped them was actually from TFL not GA. The person that stopped me showed me a badge, but I can’t remember if they mentioned who they worked for. They did make me read my rights. This was at Liverpool Street and I have never used the wrong ticket on the underground.

- is there any chance I’ll be prosecuted by TFL instead? I know they’re far more likely to take matters further

- should I have been given any paperwork or contact details? I’m anxious I might miss the post or something

 

[signed]

- should I have been given any paperwork or contact details? I’m anxious I might miss the post or something

No, you will recieve something. Some will give you a Witness statement ticket, but it's not mandatory

 

[emily369]

Sorry question after question here, just one other. If things ended up as worst case scenario, what do you do once you have a criminal record? I’ve been in my job for 2 years, would I need to tell my employer? Would it impact credit score etc and how long does it last?

 

[AntoniC]

Sorry question after question here, just one other. If things ended up as worst case scenario, what do you do once you have a criminal record? I’ve been in my job for 2 years, would I need to tell my employer? Would it impact credit score etc and how long does it last?

If you have a HR Policy read that and it (should) explain if you need to tell your employer.

 

[SuspectUsual]

I’ve been in my job for 2 years, would I need to tell my employer?

You’d need to look in your employment contract for that

 

[emily369]

No, you will recieve something. Some will give you a Witness statement ticket, but it's not mandatory

Thank you. And what about in regards to it potentially being a TFL officer?

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you. And what about in regards to it potentially being a TFL officer?

The clue to it might be where you were stopped within the station - ie was it down by underground barrier area or Elizabeth line - or by where the above ground (mainline) trains come in and their barrier line/platforms - which would be more likely GA staff.

Can you describe where you were stopped and questioned clearly? If not you could go back to the station next time you are there - take a picture of the location and post it here - people will know where it is you have photographed.

You say in your post 1 that you were told Greater Anglia will be writing to you. That must be because you recalled that. If you are confident that is what you were told then that means it is highly likely that Greater Anglia staff stopped and questioned you.

When you get a letter you will know who it is from and thus who you are dealing with. But TfL seem to almost always prosecute.

The consequences ref any prosecution re how long the criminal record stays with you and declaration rules can depend on what you are charged with and the laws concerned I think - but try not to worry about this yet because the whole point of the help here will be to try and stop it getting to prosecution anyway - though that would be more tricky if it is TfL dealing with it. Fare evasion is a relatively minor offence in the scheme of offences and regarded by many employers as less serious than trying to cover it up by not telling them about it.

 

[emily369]

Thank you - I believe what happened was I had my ticket to Tottenham Hale, heard on announcement that the Victoria line was entirely suspended due to a casualty, so carried on to Liverpool st. I then spoke with a man at the gate and asked if I could purchase the additional tot - Liv st ticket there as I couldn’t get it on the train (as you have to collect from station), and while I THOUGHT he said that’s fine today and let me through, he actually pointed me out to an officer on the other side of the barrier. I came off of overground platform 8 so it was just on the other side of the barrier.

Thanks again

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2024 ==

I know it sounds pathetic but I have crippling anxiety and haven’t been at work today because the whole experience just shook me big time. Do you know of any cases with greater anglia & fare evasion that have resulted in going to court recently?