Ivanhoe line?

[The Planner]

I'd like to see this. Electrifying Leicester- Nuneaton- Birmingham should be done because it will create a diversionary route for the wcml that can be used by electrics, it can tie in with Derby- Bristol electrificaton, and there's potential for electric freights from Hams Hall.

Nuneaton Birmingham has a higher chance than getting across to Leicester. "What if" diversionary stuff never washes its face.

 

[Lincoln]

However, journey times to Sheffield, which usually involves nearly a 45 minute wait for a connection at Worksop does not encourage people to move from their cars or indeed buses for travel to Sheffield. It also does not make journeys from Mansfield to other destinations in the north very easy when it is often quicker to first travel south via Nottingham than endure the wait at Worksop.

Once the Northern service goes half hourly from Worksop to Sheffield in December 2017 then we could very well see a step change in patronage in the northern end of the line.

As instead of 45 minute connections being the norm to Sheffield (15 minutes from Sheffield at present), it'll be roughly 15 minute connections both ways, thus reducing the overall journey time by 30 minutes - probably a little more if they connect with the non-stop trains, which would probably be more by chance rather than design.

It will be interesting to compare the ORR station statistics for the northern end of the Robin Hood line after a few years of the improved connections being in place, along with the approximate interchange figures for Worksop.

 

[Lincoln]

... and Leicestershire County Council are one of those councils which couldn't care less about it.

I'm not sure whether they are pro or anti rail.

They have certainly shown an interest in running passenger services along the line, to the point of commissioning Scott Wilson who produced a report in 2009 to appraise the case.

I've attached the PDF of the report also available here, which makes for a fascinating read.

 

[70014IronDuke]

...
What's EMT's position on it? Where there is strong will from the local TOC things tend to happen quicker, Chiltern being a driver of some of the major infrastructure work down that way as part of their evergreen programme.

I wonder if you may have stumbled upon THE major issue in the mix. I suspect EMT are not at all interested in any reopening. It's simple, really. How long is their current franchise for?

If I were a senior manager at EMT, what are my priorities?

Would I really be interested in spending time/money/resources on resurrecting a service that:

a) may not come to fruition anyway (so a total waste of effort)
b) if it does, will cause me more headaches for my flagship MML trains (in terms of potential paths and hold ups Knighton-Leicester)
c) Even if it does get the go ahead - and even if it's a solid success from Day 1 of operations - will I see any return for my owners/shareholders in the current franchise period?

Or would my time and resources (and career prospects) be better spent focusing on the very real and day to day business of putting bottoms on seats between Sheffield and St Pancras? (plus a few others, of course.)

Perhaps the only chance of this scheme coming to fruition is when the franchise is up for renewal. Didn't the current operator get brownie points for promising to re-open Corby in the last franchise award (or was that mandated by the DfT in any case)?

 

[ashworth]

Once the Northern service goes half hourly from Worksop to Sheffield in December 2017 then we could very well see a step change in patronage in the northern end of the line.

As instead of 45 minute connections being the norm to Sheffield (15 minutes from Sheffield at present), it'll be roughly 15 minute connections both ways, thus reducing the overall journey time by 30 minutes - probably a little more if they connect with the non-stop trains, which would probably be more by chance rather than design.

It will be interesting to compare the ORR station statistics for the northern end of the Robin Hood line after a few years of the improved connections being in place, along with the approximate interchange figures for Worksop.

I'd forgotten about that!
This could be a real boost for rail travel north of Mansfield and for quicker journeys from Mansfield to Sheffield and the north. I think there is also potential for a slight increase in the number of people travelling to Sheffield via Worksop from stations south of Mansfield like Sutton Parkway, Kirkby in Ashfield and even Hucknall with the cheaper via Worksop fares.

The big obstacle for this happening may be a complete lack of advertising in the Mansfield area when this happens. It really will need to be advertised especially with posters and leaflets at Mansfield Station and on the trains in addition to the local press. Unfortunately I am not sure that this will happen. Will EMT want to encourage people to travel to Sheffield rather than Nottingham using a Northern service from Worksop? Will the Nottinghamshire councils want quicker and easier journeys to Sheffield advertising at the expense of people going to Nottingham to spend their money?

At present very few people use the route from the Robin Hood line via Worksop because of the long journey times. It's not a journey that people from the Mansfield area currently consider. They will need to be told about it. Hopefully, those booking journeys to the north online may begin to be routed that way by the journey planners if reasonable fares are available. Fares will need to be available that are slightly cheaper than the via Nottingham fare. Currently only the fare as far as Sheffield is cheaper via Worksop. If you go beyond Sheffield the fare is the same as for the longer route via Nottingham. Fares to the north from Shirebrook and beyond are currently considerably cheaper than fares from Mansfield.

Incidentally, I do think that the discussion here about the Robin Hood Line is still slightly relevant to the discussion regarding the Ivanhoe. Although Coalville is nowhere the size of Mansfield the section between there and Leicester does have more potential than the section beyond Coalville to Burton on Trent. Without extremely good connections at Burton or through trains to Derby I can see it being used even less than trains currently are between Mansfield and Worksop.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Coalville has a population of 33,000 and is by far the largest place until you get to Leicester -

That must make it one of the largest places in England without a station. I mean 'proper' places - not counting, eg Gosport and West Bridgeford, which are legally proper places, of course, but have a station across the bay/river in a connected town.

Indeed, I was surprised when I found the boundary extended that far North East!

Leicestershre must the county equivalent of Syria, with that bit extending way out there to the NE.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Robin Hood line has been mentioned here but how successful has it been? Honest question here by the way. I thought I'd read that north of Mansfield it doesn't do much in the way of business and the population of Mansfield is three times the size of Coalville.

I brought up the Robin Hood Line (and Waverley) in the context of 'easiness and cost' of re-opening. ie the RHL needed a section of new trackbed, and a tunnel clearing out, and I don't know what. For Leicester - Coalville - Burton, the track was all in place before they ripped out Knighton north junction. (Of course, it would have needed investment, I'm not pretending otherwise.) I didn't actually attribute any great success - but as Yorksrob says, it would be difficult to imagine Mansfield today without the line, I think.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...
I'm not knocking investment in the region, there are the kind of population densities that ought to justify rail investment, I'm just wary of the "every re-opening has been better than expected" arguments that we tend to see!

Quite right.

There's always a job on a tabloid newspaper going, if you want to use your talents...

That's reassuring

....
If you want to give Leicester four EMUs an hour to somewhere then I'd suggest Birmingham (an Inter-City route that only gets a couple of

I was adding a touch of hyperbole added here - see tabloid mode above.

I think the best scenario - barring any massive housing development - would be 1 TPW Burton-Leicester, plus 1 tPH Coalville - Leicester.
Of course, one or both such services could be extended to Loughborough or perhaps even Melton as some kind of cross Leicester metro.
[/QUOTE]
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Once the Northern service goes half hourly from Worksop to Sheffield in December 2017 then we could very well see a step change in patronage in the northern end of the line.
....

I'm sure you are correct, and it will be interesting to see the effect of the enhanced Worksop-Sheffield service on the Mansfield line.

However, this improvement will only really make eg Langwith-Sheffield a 'doable' trip, as opposed to 'what a pain, having to wait 45 mins at Worksop, I ain't doing that' trip. For a real look at the passenger potential, we'd need through trains from Mansfield to Sheffield. And, AIUI, that just isn't going to happen with the present local government set up.

 

[duffield]

...I'm not sure that reopening to Corby has been a tremendous success...

I would have thought the fact that the Corby line is currently being redoubled (and electrified) and will have its hourly service increased to half-hourly must mean it's highly successful.

 

[Lincoln]

I wonder if you may have stumbled upon THE major issue in the mix. I suspect EMT are not at all interested in any reopening. It's simple, really. How long is their current franchise for?

If I were a senior manager at EMT, what are my priorities?...

...Perhaps the only chance of this scheme coming to fruition is when the franchise is up for renewal. Didn't the current operator get brownie points for promising to re-open Corby in the last franchise award (or was that mandated by the DfT in any case)?

I'm not sure if the re-introduction of passenger services was Corby was an initial requirement by the DfT; or if it was an option proposed by the bidders for the franchise - with it then being taken up by the DfT. Either way its been done and has become a success - not only through the reasonable passenger numbers but also by being able to speed up trains from Sheffield/Nottingham through taking up the requirement to call at the stations further south (although those living at said stations miss their direct trains up north!), plus by providing a convenient turn back facility to provide the 5th train per hour on the route.

That said, improvements and changes can happen "mid franchise", such as those delivered through the collaborative efforts of the Lincoln-Nottingham Joint Stakeholder Board, where services between Nottingham and Lincoln were accelerated and stations between Nottingham and Newark Castle were served by an additional service, bringing services between Nottingham and Newark Castle to half hourly frequencies.

A further example is where the terminating London-Derby services were extended up to Sheffield, giving the city 1/2 hourly trains to London.

I would imagine the key difference here is that EMT were already operating the routes and had an interest in improving existing services to meet the aspirations of external stakeholders who were able to then put money where their mouths are.

However Ivanhoe Stage 2 doesn't have an incumbent passenger operator, which is quite progressive with its outlook. It also requires the wholesale upgrade of a freight only line to passenger standards, the building of many stations, a new junction south of Leicester and approximately 2x 156/158s to be sourced/funded.

From my perspective this would sit better with the DfT specifying it as a new project (priced option using their parlance) at franchise bidding time.

However, this improvement will only really make eg Langwith-Sheffield a 'doable' trip, as opposed to 'what a pain, having to wait 45 mins at Worksop, I ain't doing that' trip. For a real look at the passenger potential, we'd need through trains from Mansfield to Sheffield. And, AIUI, that just isn't going to happen with the present local government set up.

If the new services were going to shuttle between Worksop and Sheffield then I would imagine that a codesharing system could operate where EMT operate services to Worksop, where Northern take them over to Sheffield enabling a direct service to run, but the plans indicate it starting back at Retford.

However that could mean that if the political will and funding is forthcoming, that the services could be potentially extended through to Cleethorpes via Brigg in the future.

With regards to advertising the improved connections, then I would hazard a guess that won't be happening - with any growth purely being organic in nature along with word of mouth.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

An interesting thread and I hope that the OP will pop back and have a look at what she's started!

I was cycling in this area a couple of weeks back and did pass through a number of the places that would be served were the line to be reopened. It's interesting that people have mentioned Coalville and Ashby-de-la-Zouch but not Swadlincote which, with a population of 36,000 (including neighbouring villages) is surely one of the most sizeable towns in the UK not to have a railway.

Whilst the line doesn't pass through the town centre, it does come pretty close at Church Gresley, which I believe did have its own station prior to the end of passenger services in the 1960s.

There's also the potential for significant leisure travel; this part of Leicestershire may not be the most scenic, but there are good cycle routes and a couple of long distance footpaths as well as the National Forest.

All in all, if the political will is there, I see no good reason why it wouldn't be worth giving the line a trial passenger service, perhaps initially on Summer weekends (like the Okehampton branch) to gauge the potential for permanent passenger reopening. Surely the cost of slapping down a handful of temporary platforms (like those used for Workington North) to serve as stations wouldn't be too prohibitive?

 

[Nerdylady]

Many thanks to all of you for the replies, I will now begin reading through them!

Thanks again.

 

[70014IronDuke]

An interesting thread and I hope that the OP will pop back and have a look at what she's started!

INDEED - but she doesn't seem to have returned !

I was cycling in this area a couple of weeks back and did pass through a number of the places that would be served were the line to be reopened. It's interesting that people have mentioned Coalville and Ashby-de-la-Zouch but not Swadlincote which, with a population of 36,000 (including neighbouring villages) is surely one of the most sizeable towns in the UK not to have a railway.

the report (posted by Lincoln, up thread) does mention Swadlincote - pp 24

http://www.hwa.uk.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/CD-05.pdf

but doesn't agree with you on the population (by a long way!)

Whilst the line doesn't pass through the town centre, it does come pretty close at Church Gresley, which I believe did have its own station prior to the end of passenger services in the 1960s.

Indeed, see pp 24!

...
All in all, if the political will is there, I see no good reason why it wouldn't be worth giving the line a trial passenger service, perhaps initially on Summer weekends (like the Okehampton branch) to gauge the potential for permanent passenger reopening. Surely the cost of slapping down a handful of temporary platforms (like those used for Workington North) to serve as stations wouldn't be too prohibitive?

I suspect it is not so easy at all these days. I'm not sure if the line needs to be somehow cleared for passenger trains for a start, and that may take some doing (ie cash). It sounds in quite ropey condition.

But, more importantly, I think the provision of (say) three or four return workings on a summer Sunday, reversing at Knighton and with a max speed of 25 mph, will say next to nothing about the line's potential as a commercial weekday link between Burton and Leicester via a re-installed Knighton North Jcn. ie a much faster service to Leicester. The two would be serving two hugely different markets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

..
That said, improvements and changes can happen "mid franchise", such as those delivered through the collaborative efforts of the Lincoln-Nottingham Joint Stakeholder Board, where services between Nottingham and Lincoln were accelerated and stations between Nottingham and Newark Castle were served by an additional service, bringing services between Nottingham and Newark Castle to half hourly frequencies.

.....
However Ivanhoe Stage 2 doesn't have an incumbent passenger operator, which is quite progressive with its outlook. It also requires the wholesale upgrade of a freight only line to passenger standards, the building of many stations, a new junction south of Leicester and approximately 2x 156/158s to be sourced/funded....

This (in bold) and getting clearance for any such scheme in the first place. This is my point. It's totally different from enhancing a service which already exists, and which needs no infrastructure changes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

.....
I'm not sure that the Robin Hood line has been a tremendous success, I'm not sure that East Midlands Parkway has been a tremendous success, I'm not sure that reopening to Corby has been a tremendous success.
...

More to the point, let's look at the three Ivanhoe stations north of Leicester (I think we can probably all agree Willington is an outlier.)

Pax for 2014 - 2015

Syston 192,000 (or 612 per day)
Sileby 111,000 (358)
BarrowS 093,000 (300)

So, roughly speaking 400,000 per annum for the three stations. And climbing.

I presume that is very nicely over the target for when they were opened in 1994.
And i presume that, while a good chunk (50%?) go to/from Leicester, and maybe 20% Loughborough, the other 25% go further afield, eg London, Nottingham, Derby etc, some of whom would not use rail if there were no local station.

 

[Ships]

Out of intrest when was the Knighton north curve removed and when was the land sold off?

 

[TheBigD]

Isn't Knighton North Curve due to be reinstated when Syston-Wigston get remodelled???

 

[edwin_m]

There is an industrial estate blocking part of it, and relocating this would be a big cost and disruption, so I doubt it would be done unless there was a definite need for it. Hopefully the track and signalling changes for Syston-Wigston will make some provision for the junction at Knighton to be put back later if needed.

 

[70014IronDuke]

There is an industrial estate blocking part of it, and relocating this would be a big cost and disruption, so I doubt it would be done unless there was a definite need for it. Hopefully the track and signalling changes for Syston-Wigston will make some provision for the junction at Knighton to be put back later if needed.

Agreed. Even without the industrial estate issue, they wouldn't reinstate the junction without a really pressing need. Way too costly.

I wonder if re-opening would stand a better chance if they went for just Leicester - Coalville. Would be much cheaper, and serve the main market. I'm sure folks at Ashby etc would soon be pressing for an extension of services if, could we call it Ivanhoe 2A, were up and running.

One thing about running a trial Sunday service for tourism (even though I don't think it is very likely to be feasible) would be that it would at least raise awareness of the line's existence to the local population.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Forum members keep banging on about tourists using this line at weekends but which tourist attractions will they be heading to?

 

[TheBigD]

There is an industrial estate blocking part of it, and relocating this would be a big cost and disruption, so I doubt it would be done unless there was a definite need for it. Hopefully the track and signalling changes for Syston-Wigston will make some provision for the junction at Knighton to be put back later if needed.

In a recent (last 12 months or so) edition of Modern Railways there was an article about Syston-Wigston remodeling... Grade separation at Wigston and 4 tacking and doubling Syston Junction amongst other things... The accompanying diagrams showed a new/reinstated north curve at Knighton Junction which the article stated would replace the Knighton loop which would be lost to the 4 tracking...

I've no idea what the current plans or status of the scheme is... Perhaps "The Planner" may know more...

 

[ag51ruk]

Forum members keep banging on about tourists using this line at weekends but which tourist attractions will they be heading to?

The National Forest and associated attractions(e.g. Conkers) is the only thing I can think of.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Forum members keep banging on about tourists using this line at weekends

Do they? I can only find one reference in this thread to "a trial Sunday service for tourism" caveated immediately with "even though I don't think it is very likely to be feasible". That's not really "keep banging on", is it?

Anyone who knows the area (I worked in Burton for six years) understands that the roads are very poor - the A511 is slow and winding, the A444 from Swadlincote to Burton is perpetually jammed.

The end-to-end flow, i.e. Leicester-Burton, is not likely to be too significant. But there are massive local flows along the line: Swad-Burton-Derby (and a Derby extension is essential), Coalville-Leicester, both ways from Ashby. Most of my cow orkers in Burton lived in the Swad-Ashby corridor. Add a handful of urban stations in Leicester and I could well see this line as a winner.

 

[daodao]

The end-to-end flow, i.e. Leicester-Burton, is not likely to be too significant. But there are massive local flows along the line: Swad-Burton-Derby (and a Derby extension is essential), Coalville-Leicester, both ways from Ashby. Most of my co-workers in Burton lived in the Swad-Ashby corridor. Add a handful of urban stations in Leicester and I could well see this line as a winner.

This line has a much better case for re-opening than the following hopeless examples endlessly discussed on this site, such as:
Malton-Pickering
Beverley-York
Northallerton-Ripon
Bedford-Cambridge
Okehampton-Tavistock
Bath-Blandford Forum (the slow & dirty line)
Dumfries-Stranraer (the Port Road)
Carlisle-Hawick (the Waverley route)
Aberystwyth-Carmarthen
Caernarfon-Afon Wen

It would reconnect several substantial settlements to the passenger rail network, although it doesn't go quite close enough to the centre of Swadlincote.

 

[TheKnightWho]

This line has a much better case for re-opening than the following hopeless examples endlessly discussed on this site, such as:
Malton-Pickering
Beverley-York
Northallerton-Ripon
Bedford-Cambridge
Okehampton-Tavistock
Bath-Blandford Forum (the slow & dirty line)
Dumfries-Stranraer (the Port Road)
Carlisle-Hawick (the Waverley route)
Aberystwyth-Carmarthen
Caernarfon-Afon Wen

It would reconnect several substantial settlements to the passenger rail network, although it doesn't go quite close enough to the centre of Swadlincote.

Lol. I like how you snuck that one in there.

Didn't you spend a huge thread arguing it'd never get anywhere, despite it being actively pursued with a decent, positive BCR? I sense sour grapes.

 

[43074]

I wonder if re-opening would stand a better chance if they went for just Leicester - Coalville. Would be much cheaper, and serve the main market. I'm sure folks at Ashby etc would soon be pressing for an extension of services if, could we call it Ivanhoe 2A, were up and running.

There's still very little population between Coalville and the Kirby Muxloe/Leicester Forest East area though, if you were to do that I suspect you'd have to incorporate urban stations in Leicester (e.g. Leicester Forest East, Bede Island) to make it viable, which would have an adverse effect on journey times from further out. Swadlincote, Ashby & Coalville would be the important markets for the line, I suspect the case for reopening would be better if they were included from the outset.

Alternatively, ditch the heavy rail idea and opt for a lower cost tram-train solution*, in which case you could probably have a few urban stations in Leicester as well.

* I'm not sure a tram-train has been looked at for the route, it might facilitate a lower cost and increase the likelihood of a reopening, especially given the line runs through Western Leicester which would benefit from relief to the congested Hinckley & King Richard Roads.

 

[Andy-mc]

I think opening the line to passenger services would be viable in the long term, starting at Leicester putting the north bound curve would be the only major issue with some of the land being sold off but otherwise:
- You could have a station close to the king power stadium which could provide a controlled service for match days and possibly bring more interest in using the stadium as a venue more often
- at Leicester forest east they already have a park and ride right next to the line that could have a station built near it, its also very close to Jn 21A of the M1 which is due upgrading in the next few years.
-Kirby muxloe could have a demand although LFE wouldn't be far
- the location for Desford is right at the bottom of a hill and fairly far out so not sure how many people would use this over the bus unless the rail service is of good speed.
-Colville if I remember rightly is one of the UK's biggest towns without any rail services and could benefit massively
- other stations I wouldn't be sure of as I don't know the areas but I believe it would be worth while investment

 

[edwin_m]

Alternatively, ditch the heavy rail idea and opt for a lower cost tram-train solution*, in which case you could probably have a few urban stations in Leicester as well.

Tram-train is unlikely to be a lower cost solution unless it can make use of a significant part of an existing light rail line, which obviously isn't the case here. Tram-trains are more expensive than trains for the same capacity, need various extra infrastructure work, and the maximum speed is 60mph or less and would probably preclude continuing into Derby.

 

[Robertj21a]

Not sure that Coalville - Leicester would generate as much train traffic as has been suggested. Although it covers quite a large area, many of the people already live to the east of the town (Agar Nook etc), so are already on the way towards Leicester. I doubt that many would see much point in travelling the opposite way in order to catch the train back again. The railway station in Leicester is also further away from the central area, so may not have any advantage over the regular bus service.

 

[Nerdylady]

Thanks so much for this info.

 

[Nerdylady]

INDEED - but she doesn't seem to have returned !

Yes I have! I am working my way through the many replies.
I seem to have opened a few cans of rail worms!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It really ought to be worth upgrading the line to passenger standards, if nothing else it would be a useful diversionary route while the MML is being electrified... If the likes of Coalville and Ashby are added to the network too, that's a bonus.

 

[AndyW33]

It really ought to be worth upgrading the line to passenger standards, if nothing else it would be a useful diversionary route while the MML is being electrified... If the likes of Coalville and Ashby are added to the network too, that's a bonus.

Does anyone know what actually needs to be done to upgrade the route to diversionary passenger standards,and what further to operate a scheduled local passenger service?

I'm dubious about the level of electrification diversions that would use the line. Unless the line is ready for passenger service as it is now, a fair proportion of the MML bridge replacements/raisings will actually be finished before it could be ready. Sheet Stores to Derby already has a passenger-rated diversionary route via Castle Donington and EMT crews sign this, south of there as far as Leicester the MML is either three or four track. Unless the missing curve is reinstated, diversions via Coalville would either miss out Leicester altogether or require a double reversal to serve Leicester, but given the need for compulsory purchase orders the electrification would probably be completed before the curve could be back in.
How much extra time would a Nottingham train require to be routed this way? I wouldn't be surprised if buses offered a faster alternative.

 

[The Planner]

You cannot make a case on diversionary routes. They dont happen often enough or be quantified.