Ivanhoe line (via Coalville) - potential reopening?

[Doctor Fegg]

If you were going to do that then there’s space for a bay platform. But I expect lots of the demand will be towards Derby.

 

[zwk500]

How complicated (or expensive) would it be to install additional signalling at Burton to enable reversals?

It depends how much you do, and any option would need to not impact on XC services through the station. The two simplest options would force all reversals to be on the Derby-bound platform and take it out of commission for about 8-10 minutes per reversal.

 

[50002Superb]

Shame they don’t do Leicester to Crewe in my opinion, and change the Crewe to Newark service to a Matlock to Newark.

 

[zwk500]

Shame they don’t do Leicester to Crewe in my opinion, and change the Crewe to Newark service to a Matlock to Newark.

This line would have no bearing on either of these services. The junction for the Derby-Crewe line faces north, so you'd need to run via Trent for a Leicester-Crewe service (or via Nuneaton, which would be quicker for that specific journey flow).

 

[50002Superb]

Leicester via the Ivanhoe and Burton into Derby then on to Crewe

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Sep 2023 ==

Leicester via the Ivanhoe and Burton into Derby then on to Crewe

All Crewe services require a change of ends at Derby so it would make no difference operationally

 

[zwk500]

Leicester via the Ivanhoe and Burton into Derby then on to Crewe

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Sep 2023 ==


All Crewe services require a change of ends at Derby so it would make no difference operationally

It'd be much slower, and you'd be massively restricting the available paths between Derby and Burton which makes a massive difference operationally.

 

[50002Superb]

It'd be much slower, and you'd be massively restricting the available paths between Derby and Burton which makes a massive difference operationally.

Surely a terminating service at Burton or carrying on to Birmingham would be equally as problematic?

 

[DDB]

The OP says the brief specifically says running through to Derby so given that this specifically a bare minimum scheme someone with the right data has done at least a preliminary check that paths are available to run through to Derby.

Burton - Derby sees 4 XC an hour in each direction plus some freight and the EMR Crewe service once you get to Derby but you also have loops/ 4 tracking near Derby so surely a path can be found given that it won't interact with anything else once it is on the branch so you don't need to consider pathing elsewhere.

It would be good if the time can be found for PearTree stops as I suspect a chunk of the market might be people commuting to the Rolls-Royce factories near there.

If it has plenty of dwell time at Derby the North end of platforms 3 and 4 are barely used as the South end are used for reversals from the South so it can sit up there waiting for its own slot to go South.

It would be better if it went to Leicester as well but I'm firmly of the opinion of getting the easy bit built and in use to prove how much use it gets to give a firmer base to campaign for the next bit.

 

[zwk500]

Surely a terminating service at Burton or carrying on to Birmingham would be equally as problematic?

Terminating at Burton can shunt out of the way. Terminating at Derby you can pick and choose which slots you get between Burton and Derby and then just run on and off the branch. Birmingham is extremely unlikely to happen for exactly this problem.

 

[The Planner]

The OP says the brief specifically says running through to Derby so given that this specifically a bare minimum scheme someone with the right data has done at least a preliminary check that paths are available to run through to Derby.

Burton - Derby sees 4 XC an hour in each direction plus some freight and the EMR Crewe service once you get to Derby but you also have loops/ 4 tracking near Derby so surely a path can be found given that it won't interact with anything else once it is on the branch so you don't need to consider pathing elsewhere.

It would be good if the time can be found for PearTree stops as I suspect a chunk of the market might be people commuting to the Rolls-Royce factories near there.

If it has plenty of dwell time at Derby the North end of platforms 3 and 4 are barely used as the South end are used for reversals from the South so it can sit up there waiting for its own slot to go South.

It would be better if it went to Leicester as well but I'm firmly of the opinion of getting the easy bit built and in use to prove how much use it gets to give a firmer base to campaign for the next bit.

Depends on how much they have spent on the prelim study. Even a cursory look to find some standard hourly paths is going to cost around 10-15k from a consultant.

 

[jfowkes]

I live near Coalville and the local FB groups are full of moaners and angry people about it not going to Leicester but none have read the info from NR etc or even bothered to think about it in detail.

South of Coalville there is a lot of potential freight traffic, there is a couple of big quarries with many paths for big heavy stone trains. You would have to fit the passenger paths in and around these… which brings us to the next points…

The line is also single for a lot (if not all) of it, I can’t fully remember as it’s been a while since I followed the line, but having walked over various bits on my jaunts in the countryside lots is single track so that limits the options for passing..

Then you get to the issue of the north chord missing and the land built on, so now your looking at a reversal somewhere, which eats into capacity on the main line,

It is also tied into Leicester remodeling which isn’t happening right now and the money for the opening is a set amount.. ie we have X amount what can you open with that? Oh and by the way you have until the next election to sort it all out (not sure if that’s just get it costed and the wheels in motion.. Ie signed off but I guess so as the chance of it being finished is 0) and clearly sorting a missing chord and / or adding passing loops isn’t cheap.

North of Coalville very little runs, I think last time I checked there is a coupe trains a week that’s it, so pathing for north is a lot easier and you don’t need any extra infrastructure as such I am guessing, so cheaper and quicker meaning you hit the budget and time restrictions too.

Once north it open and if it’s used then campaign for phase 2 getting into Leicester, but alot of the locals don’t understand or see this,

All this is what I was alluding to in my posts above complaining about the lack of a joined up plan.

Obviously reopening to Leicester and building a north-facing chord is the best thing for the line. While Burton and Derby are easier, Leicester is clearly going to be the biggest draw.

It would be much better for someone official to be able to say "reopening to Leicester is going to take more money and time due to factors X, Y and Z but we are already planning for that to happen and here's our outline timescales etc."

Instead, who knows when Leicester services might happen? 5 years? 20? 50?

 

[Doctor Fegg]

You’ve said “obviously” and “clearly” but I don’t see that it’s obvious or clear at all. Swadlincote looks to Burton and Derby, not Leicester. Ashby is probably half and half, Coalville probably a bit more Leicester. Given that the worst road congestion is at the western end of the line, this seems an eminently sensible strategy to me.

 

[ChrisC]

Shame they don’t do Leicester to Crewe in my opinion, and change the Crewe to Newark service to a Matlock to Newark.

That would result in Nottingham losing through trains to Crewe again. Passenger growth these last few years has been quite considerable between Derby and Crewe with an increasing number of through passengers from Nottingham.

 

[M7R]

A lot of people on the local FB claim that Leicester is the key as we are in Leicestershire, but to be honest we go shopping in both Leicester and Burton and Burton is better, the railway also has better connections from Burton and Derby too.

NR can’t say the plan is Leicester in XYZ years etc as at the moment there isn’t any money or plan for it. It is an aspersion, a long term goal and the next step but who knows when it will be…

 

[50002Superb]

That would result in Nottingham losing through trains to Crewe again. Passenger growth these last few years has been quite considerable between Derby and Crewe with an increasing number of through passengers from Nottingham.

As someone who lives in Long Eaton and regularly commutes by train, it wouldn’t be the end of the world. There are plenty of trains to Derby to get a connection

 

[zwk500]

You’ve said “obviously” and “clearly” but I don’t see that it’s obvious or clear at all. Swadlincote looks to Burton and Derby, not Leicester. Ashby is probably half and half, Coalville probably a bit more Leicester. Given that the worst road congestion is at the western end of the line, this seems an eminently sensible strategy to me.

I think it is a reasonable assumption that serving both cities would be better than serving one. The issue is that you need major investment to serve Leicester and very minimal investment to serve Derby.

A lot of people on the local FB claim that Leicester is the key as we are in Leicestershire, but to be honest we go shopping in both Leicester and Burton and Burton is better, the railway also has better connections from Burton and Derby too.

Yes, county borders and the relation to the 'county town' have slowly been becoming less relevant as time goes on. Having said that, Leicester does have a lot of employment opportunities and connecting the corridor to Leicester would help both the towns by providing access to jobs and the city by providing a wider labour pool, as well as leisure travel.

The only thing it isn't really worth serving Leicester for is onwards connections by rail - pretty much every connection can be made at Derby, albeit sometimes with longer overall journeys.

NR can’t say the plan is Leicester in XYZ years etc as at the moment there isn’t any money or plan for it. It is an aspersion, a long term goal and the next step but who knows when it will be…

This. Although, don't you mean aspiration?

 

[jfowkes]

NR can’t say the plan is Leicester in XYZ years etc as at the moment there isn’t any money or plan for it. It is an aspersion, a long term goal and the next step but who knows when it will be…

Yes, this is just a restatement of the problem - there is no plan!

 

[duffield]

For access to Leicester, I can see there's a loop off of the main lines between Wigston North and Knighton junctions (on the opposite side to the junctions).

It looks like the crossovers would allow you to run off of the branch, across the main lines and into the loop, then do the reversal in the loop and go forward into Leicester. It does mean crossing the main lines to get to the loop, but it avoids reversing actually on the main line.

Is that actually a possible move at present, signalling wise, and would it be practical, given it would at least allow mainline trains to pass during the reversal?

 

[sharpley]

For access to Leicester, I can see there's a loop off of the main lines between Wigston North and Knighton junctions...

Freight trains already use that loop to reverse in and out of the Burton line so definitely possible. Locos run around using Wigston North and Knighton junction..

 

[zwk500]

... Is that actually a possible move at present, signalling wise,

Yes, definitely possible.

and would it be practical, given it would at least allow mainline trains to pass during the reversal?

Not really, you need to get to the Up loop to do the reversal, and then you'd cross the Up Main on departure back to Leicester. If the 3/4 tracking got the go ahead then it may be a lot more possible.

 

[DDB]

This has made the government's "not HS2" scheme and announced as reopening. Whether they actually mean this is another question.

 

[jfowkes]

If only there were some way to make space at Leicester and Derby for Ivanhoe Line services, for example some kind of high speed bypass for the XC and MML services.

A mad idea, clearly.

 

[Basil Jet]

If only there were some way to make space at Leicester and Derby for Ivanhoe Line services, for example some kind of high speed bypass for the XC and MML services.

A mad idea, clearly.

I just remembered that the name "Ivanhoe Line" was originally used for local services between Leicester and Loughborough, when the intermediate stations at Syston, Sileby and Barrow-upon-Soar reopened in 1994.

Leicester to Burton was to be phase 2 of the Ivanhoe Line, presumably with through service from Loughborough to Burton.

That phase 1 service has now become part of a larger service to Lincoln, and the "Ivanhoe Line" label now just means the former phase 2, presumably no longer having any aspiration to make them a single service.

 

[Chester1]

If only there were some way to make space at Leicester and Derby for Ivanhoe Line services, for example some kind of high speed bypass for the XC and MML services.

A mad idea, clearly.

Maybe something that removes all the intercity services south of East Midlands Parkway?

 

[InTheEastMids]

Maybe something that removes all the intercity services south of East Midlands Parkway?

Yes, who'd ever want to get to Leicester on an intercity service, from any direction...

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes, who'd ever want to get to Leicester on an intercity service, from any direction...

There’s probably more demand for people wanting to get out of Leicester, quickly.

 

[Techniquest]

There’s probably more demand for people wanting to get out of Leicester, quickly.

As in a 'get me out of this dump and fast' kind of thing, or because there's just lots of people wanting to go places?

There's a town local to me that belongs in the former camp there, and I'd hate for Leicester to be in that too!

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I just remembered that the name "Ivanhoe Line" was originally used for local services between Leicester and Loughborough, when the intermediate stations at Syston, Sileby and Barrow-upon-Soar reopened in 1994. ...

Ivanhoe logos also appeared at Willington station, isolated at the other end of the Leicester–Burton line!

 

[Bald Rick]

As in a 'get me out of this dump and fast' kind of thing, or because there's just lots of people wanting to go places?

There's a town local to me that belongs in the former camp there, and I'd hate for Leicester to be in that too!

Definitely the former, in my opinion!

 

[Techniquest]

Definitely the former, in my opinion!

Oh dear! I've not properly visited Leicester yet, I think I popped out to the station front many years ago but that's as far as I've got. The place is definitely on my list of places to explore, and surely it can't be as bad as Aylesbury and Bedford!