Stephen55a1960
Member
It wasn't an advance journey (the KX-Inverness example). That was the walk on fare at the time. The cheapest fare (directly bookable with Deutsche Bahn) for Munich to Amsterdam (change at Cologne) was £69.
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ITV Program "Off the Rails" Tonight at 7:30pm
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It wasn't an advance journey (the KX-Inverness example). That was the walk on fare at the time. The cheapest fare (directly bookable with Deutsche Bahn) for Munich to Amsterdam (change at Cologne) was £69.
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Stephen55a1960
Member
Five days? It was the cheapest, anyway, as a UK Disabled Person's Railcard is not valid in Germany.
You just said that your journey was £69 and an equivalent journey in Britain would be £127. How can the British journey be cheaper unless you book in advance?
SS4
Established Member
Factual programs are meant to inform before entertain. There are plenty of fictional programs with wide appeal. A program that peddles fiction or heavily biased/selective with the facts is far more troubling than both fiction and non-fiction.
More like 21-23 minutes once you take out the ads. As said above a program aired in prime time needs to rake in the viewers for ad revenue and there'll be an underlying current of appealing to a wide audience leading to the kind of stuff HH said in the post I quoted below.
Re Point 2: Depending on the political spin of the show they'll have a statement from one or the other instead of an interview which may or may not be quoted out of context.
It should go without saying that they won't offer a (better) solution but demand that something be done. Long live Doublethink
I wonder what the German fare from Berlin to her second city be?
Stephen55a1960
Member
I don't count five days as far enough in advance. I take your point though. The British journey I quoted is similar in time and mileage. It was still £127. Also, London Kings Cross to Inverness can be done directly. Munich to Amsterdam cannot.
I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say here. You just said the British journey was about double the cost but then you are trying to say that the British journey would actually be cheapest as a Railcard is not valid in Germany?
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Stephen55a1960
Member
The cheapest fare quoted by Deutsche Bahn (taking account of timescale) was £69. Disregard (for a moment)that I hold a Disabled Person's Railcard. The cheapest fare for Kings Cross to Inverness was £127. I still think that is extortionate.
Yes it is quite expensive but unlike on the other route, cheaper fares are available. Personally I agree that the walk-up fare is expensive but when I have suggested before that fares are like these too expensive, the response has usually been that I should shut up and just book in advance, that the cost of travel for many people has been made significantly cheaper since the introduction of advance fares and that if you want flexibility then should expect to pay the much higher price that it commands. If you turned up at a London airport wanting to board the next flight to Inverness then you can expect to pay significantly more than if you booked in advance. I'm personally no fan of the system but at the end of the day that's how it is and a lot of people have benefitted from the availability of rock bottom advance fares. It's not a fair comparison when one of the routes in question doesn't use airline style pricing and the other does.
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Well not really. A walk up fare is what it is and there will be a situation where you have no choice but to pay it, you don't always have advance warning.
When comparing fares, or balking at the price, its worth looking at the alternatives and see how the train fare compares. Very favourably as far as I can see. From a quick search, the plane fare is certainly more expensive and the costs of driving a car, never mind the fuss of driving such a journey are near as dammit the same as well.
That price for a walk up fare for a journey of 5-600 miles isn't that bad I don't think, but its a personal opinion.
What I posted above though has been the repsonse (not from anyone official though) when I have said that I think walk-up fares are too expensive. Yes there are times when you have no choice but to pay the walk-up fare due to having to make a journey at short notice but another advantage of walk-up fares is the flexibilty offered. Back in the days of Super Savers I would often use one even when I knew the days I would be travelling in advance, due to the flexbility it offered. These days it would just be argued that such flexbility commands a higher price and that instead of complaining that this price is so high, people should book in advance.
To be fair very few people will get out of bed one morning and spontaneously decide they need to travel 600 miles. Provided they are available, Advance fares are an appropriate alternative to cheap walk-on fares.
The caveat, of course, being that they are actually available. I've seen numerous Advance fares on BRFares.com which despite then spending an hour searching for I can never, ever find offered for sale even months in advance.
The caveat, of course, being that they are actually available. I've seen numerous Advance fares on BRFares.com which despite then spending an hour searching for I can never, ever find offered for sale even months in advance.
For completeness' sake:
the full second class fare Munich-Amsterdam is EUR150-EUR165 depending on route (but not on time of day).
the SuperOffpeak London-Inverness is £140 and the Anytime £172.
the cheapest Advances are £21.35 and EUR39 respectively - but the highest would be £137(!) and EUR119 (1 day and 3 day cutoffs respectively).
But: a Bahncard25 gives 25% off and costs EUR39 for a senior citizen or disabled person, while a disabled railcard is £20 and gives 34%off.
That suggests to me that the overall fare package is actually in the same ballpark, though structured rather differently!
(BTW the cheapest Munich-Amsterdam 5 days from now is EUR99, the cheapest London-INV is £55.30)
That is of course the issue. TOCs only need a few of the cheapest to be able to have them as their headline figure. For example East Coast used to advertise 'thousands of seats to London from York starting at £10!' the reality is of course not all trains have £10 fares and those that do might only have one or two at that tier.
That being said booking 8+ weeks in advance I can normally find the bottom few tiers still available on a great many services and they normally represent good value for money.
Butts
Veteran Member
I notice the "feature" on East Coast had the First Class "covers" removed from the seats when the interview was taking place.
What is this fixation with removing all 1st Class lineage
What is this fixation with removing all 1st Class lineage
MCW
Member
I notice the "feature" on East Coast had the First Class "covers" removed from the seats when the interview was taking place.
What is this fixation with removing all 1st Class lineage
to make it look worse? you never know with these media types!
D365
Veteran Member
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An interesting programme for sure, with various opinions from within the industry and pax too.
merlodlliw
Established Member
I fully agree, I was interested in the VT drivers comment about rodents,it seemed full of days gone by, I dont doubt his observation though.
To put down boxes, Nat Rail at Euston have to get permission from all tocs & appeared to give the impression that it could take ages.
Yet in lets say the Trafford Centre or others, the management with hundreds of outlets don't have this kind of problem, all though they do have rodents as does every major outlet, but they are kept under control.
Bring back the station cat, or the odd Jack Russell
Bob
The odd thing is I often have no problems booking onto one of the low tier FGW Advance Fares to London - if I am 6 weeks or so in advance there is usuallay a good selection of value advance fares - yet you try finding any of the mystical low end 'XC and Connections' fares...
The problem is that the whole fare system is so inconsistent. Advance fares for say a Saturday trip from Loughborough to Liverpool are almost non existent unless you are a fare enthusiast. Ie split tickets etc. Also my mate travels Shrewsbury to Liverpool on a cheap day return with no advanced booking. Advance fares are easy when you're travelling North South but cut across TOC boundaries and your paying savers. I'm not bothered about fares in Germany but there are a lot of people in this country who neither or rarely use railways. The railway industry should be aware of this. Rail is not a necessity like Hospitals or Schools. It should be totally inclusive and priced and marketed accordingly. That means wholesale changes but nobody wants to bite the bullet. A cut in subsidy would start the process!
This is flawed logic - there are a lot of people in this country who neither or rarely use the welfare system either and that costs many many times more than the rail network does. Even those who do not use rail benefit from it. How much more congested would the roads be? How much more expensive would products and services from major cities be if suddenly everyone commuting into, say, London, couldnt use rail to do so, etc etc.
We are a society therefore we fund things that we may not personally use. I can think of numerous things I do not use but which the money I pay in tax goes towards funding. I have no problem with any of that. The railways are an important social service just like buses (Which I do never use - I always drive instead yet have no problem with my local council subsidising bus transport for those who do).
It is also a bit of a myth that fares in the UK are always more expensive than those in Europe.
For example Paris to Strasbourg and London to Manchester are reasonably similar in terms of journey times.
So someone turning up at the Gare De L'Est without any advance booking this afternoon and wanting a full fare single (Plein Tarif Loisir) for the 13:25 to Strasbourg could expect to pay 89 (approx. £74.10). This ticket would only be valid for the 13:25 train, although it would be possible to exchange it for a seat on a later train. Subject to space being available of course, as TGV's are reservation only.
An off peak single from Euston to Manchester, again without booking in advance, is £73.20. This would be valid on any off peak train. Moreover, an off peak return is £74.20, whereas to come back from Strasbourg to Paris would require the purchase of an additional ticket.
Peak fares in the UK are of course much more expensive.
The point is that when comparing fares between countries you have to compare like with like, in terms of whether it is necessary to book in advance, whether the ticket is valid on all trains and the level of service provided.
To use my earlier example, there is generally one train per hour between Paris and Strasbourg, with occasional extra trains plus some examples of 90 minute gaps in service. Whereas between London and Manchester there are three trains per hour for most of the day.
Anothe comparison made in last mights program was the cost of season tickets between Woking and London compared with similar journeys in France, Germany, Spain and Italy. The UK season ticket was most expensive, but it would be interesting to compare the level of service provided between Woking and London compared to the level of service in the other countries.
For example Paris to Strasbourg and London to Manchester are reasonably similar in terms of journey times.
So someone turning up at the Gare De L'Est without any advance booking this afternoon and wanting a full fare single (Plein Tarif Loisir) for the 13:25 to Strasbourg could expect to pay 89 (approx. £74.10). This ticket would only be valid for the 13:25 train, although it would be possible to exchange it for a seat on a later train. Subject to space being available of course, as TGV's are reservation only.
An off peak single from Euston to Manchester, again without booking in advance, is £73.20. This would be valid on any off peak train. Moreover, an off peak return is £74.20, whereas to come back from Strasbourg to Paris would require the purchase of an additional ticket.
Peak fares in the UK are of course much more expensive.
The point is that when comparing fares between countries you have to compare like with like, in terms of whether it is necessary to book in advance, whether the ticket is valid on all trains and the level of service provided.
To use my earlier example, there is generally one train per hour between Paris and Strasbourg, with occasional extra trains plus some examples of 90 minute gaps in service. Whereas between London and Manchester there are three trains per hour for most of the day.
Anothe comparison made in last mights program was the cost of season tickets between Woking and London compared with similar journeys in France, Germany, Spain and Italy. The UK season ticket was most expensive, but it would be interesting to compare the level of service provided between Woking and London compared to the level of service in the other countries.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Practically everyone I know who drives to work uses the train at some point either when there's a problem with their car, they have a medical problem or they want to go for a few drinks after work.
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For all fares in Europe yes but some European fares are very cheap in comparison to UK fares. Single fares are the worst - in the North of England only a small percentage of routes have off-peak singles and the standard single price is around 90% of the cost of an off-peak return.
Let's pretend an Italian tourist arrives at Liverpool Airport and is staying at a hotel in Manchester (around 30 miles away.) Ignoring the bus to South Parkway they would pay a minimum of £13.60 for a return rail journey between South Parkway and Manchester.
Let's also pretend an English tourist arrives at Pisa Airport and is staying at a hotel in Florence (around 50 miles away.) They pay €7,10 single each way which makes it around £11.30 for a return journey and no need for an additional bus fare to get to the station from the Airport.
So our fares look expensive when you buy the best combination of tickets. However, the Italian is used to return fares being double single fares so they might arrive in the UK and ask for a single out of habit (intending to buy a single in the other direction on another day) and it could cost them up to £23.80 for a single in each direction on an approx 30 mile journey - when it's £11.30 for the same on a 50 mile journey in Italy.
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Very true. I believe there was a document released, maybe a year ago now, that clearly showed that XC only made the lowest tiers available on precious few services (and none at all on trains before 0900 I think). But of course whilst each flow might only have one or two on only a few services every day, they can still advertise that as their 'headline' fare.
On a semi-related note, there used to be tax incentives for private school fee's, private healthcare plans etc. so those paying for 'public' services could offset some of their spending. All that went...
Why are consumers so dumb as to always look at the headline figure? Because of this, and the inability to look beyond at the small print, or extras, or exclusion, everyone is under the false belief that some people are so much cheaper than others.
We have it with the likes of Ryanair, mobile phone operators (keeping line rental down but now having loads of add-ons or surcharges) and travel (limited ticket allocations, or some trains with no cheap fares at all).
People need to wise up, as if we continute to fall for these 'tricks' then of course the companies will continue to use them - and that's why we have so many misleading advertisements. I don't really blame the companies though; they're in business and are not always breaking any rules.
The same, of course, goes for people who claim that it's cheaper to go by car without including the other costs, like wear and tear, servicing, depreciation etc.
We have it with the likes of Ryanair, mobile phone operators (keeping line rental down but now having loads of add-ons or surcharges) and travel (limited ticket allocations, or some trains with no cheap fares at all).
People need to wise up, as if we continute to fall for these 'tricks' then of course the companies will continue to use them - and that's why we have so many misleading advertisements. I don't really blame the companies though; they're in business and are not always breaking any rules.
The same, of course, goes for people who claim that it's cheaper to go by car without including the other costs, like wear and tear, servicing, depreciation etc.
Indeed. And let's not forget that people who never use the railways also benefit from them, even if it's simply that they're having to share roads with less users. But not only this, of course, but all the public service people, like Nurses, that depend on rail. You might be glad that there is public transport when you have to go to a hospital in a city centre.
Morgsie
Member
Just watched it, rather interesting. The BBC did one something similar regarding fares a while ago.
But by comparing the cost of two journeys of similar duration you are ignoring the fact that Strasbourg is considerably further from Paris than Manchester is from London, and therefore that the cost per kilometre of the British journey is significantly higher than the cost per kilometre of the French journey.
You'd also be travelling on a spacious TGV rather than a cramped Pendolino...
TGV
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