Items dropped onto the track /incident at Farringdon (Thameslink platforms)

[Railcar]

The main thing I take from this is that the railway continues to do a terrible job of providing its staff, particularly the unfortunate platform staff who have to deal with irritable and confused passengers, with reliable and timely information.

Agreed. At Finsbury Park, a Horsham Thameslink train was waitng on Platform 2. A Brighton Thameslink train was brought in to Platform 4 (the Up Fast). THe Brighton left first, leaving the passengers (including me) on the Horsham train waiting. A word from the platform staff as to which train was leaving first would have been helpful. A little thinking on my part ("the signaller won't leave the Up Fast blocked when there are LNER, Hull and other fast services needing a path to Kings Cross") should have made me change trains.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Other than having people take more care, making every single station have platform screen doors? The only other thing would be getting a response and repair team to site quicker. It’s obviously more of a risk in 3rd rail areas.

There are open platforms almost everywhere and that isn’t going to change.

I did notice they were sending a stack of southbound trains through and then seemingly a stack of northbound. I’d have thought the signaller might have considered it better to alternate. Luckily there are points both south and north of Farringdon to allow trains to traverse easily.

Was at St Pancras earlier with a lot of annoyed airport passengers - separately there appeared to be a power cut at Gatwick too.

No. Only if there's one signalling section between crossovers would it be inconsequential to send one train in each direction at a time. Where you can run more than one train at a time on a single line it is always better to send a flight of trains in one direction, then a flight in another.
You'll see this as major terminals as well - a succession of trains arriving, then a succession departing, as it reduces capacity to alternate

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Utter chaos on the Thameslink services from London Bridge this morning. Many services cancelled (e.g. all the Luton trains as far as I could see) and the remainder running slow between London Bridge and Blackfriars, which Network Rail was saying was due to signalling problems.

A delayed Bedford service was due in at LBg platform 5 at 8.02. At 08:01 it was announced that ‘the next train will not stop here’, only it did. It wasn’t clear if this was the Bedford service or not. Then they announced on the platform that the service was terminating there, at the same time as the driver was announcing that this was the supposedly cancelled Luton service and would now carry on to there. Needless to say the passengers were totally confused, but on the assumption that the driver knew best, quite a few of us got on.

At Blackfriars platform staff were again telling people not to get on as the train was terminating there. Only it didn’t. It was only when we got to City Thameslink (the worst station for alternatives) and the pantograph had come down that a very apologetic driver had to tell people to detrain, due to a track circuit failure. (Platform staff, meanwhile, had no idea what was going on as they had no up-to-date info other than ‘fault on the train’). Luckily, the following train (which I think was the Bedford service that had originally been advertised at LBg) eventually turned up once the empty train finally got cleared from the platform.

The main thing I take from this is that the railway continues to do a terrible job of providing its staff, particularly the unfortunate platform staff who have to deal with irritable and confused passengers, with reliable and timely information.

Still utter chaos 50% of services canned off for rest of day. Why can't they use POSA?

 

[ComUtoR]

Still utter chaos 50% of services canned off for rest of day. Why can't they use POSA?

POSA ?

Could you explain what a POSA is and how this would be beneficial please ?

 

[Hadders]

Did Northbound trains non-stop at Farringdon during the single line working to maximise throughput?

Southbound trains have to stop at Farringdonto change from AC to DC but northbound the change happens at City Thameslink. I assume it would be considered too risky to do the southbound change at City Thameslink in case of failure.

 

[Mattydo]

POSA ?

Could you explain what a POSA is and how this would be beneficial please ?

Proceed on sight authority. Looks like an APLS but it flashes.

Gives permission to proceed at caution past a defective signal showing a red aspect.

Sounds like they are on site trying to fix the TC issue though so not sure if it's relevant. Particularly as POSA use means the Signaller has to wait for the train they've cleared into the section to register on the next piece of working TCB before they can send another train in (unlike a normal sub a POSA does imply their is no train in the section ahead but the usual (buffers, obstacles other signals etc.) caution applies.

With that train proceeding at caution and the implications that multiple sections are affected by the defect the use of POSA may not actually be all that likely to improve the service as much as getting the problem fixed ASAP and if that's an actual track issue then NWR access is needed.

It's also worth remembering that the rule book (rightly or wrongly) requires that a driver make use of the "best" form of signalling available. That means drivers still using ETCS and POSA usage under ETCS is laboriously slow. On site mode in this case steps up in tiny 60m increments bringing the train to a near stop each time.

Ultiajtley good for a quick fix on one section going down but if it delays a more permanent fix or covers multiple sections then using BI DI would be quicker I'd imagine.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jun 2023 ==

Did Northbound trains non-stop at Farringdon during the single line working to maximise throughput?

Southbound trains have to stop at Farringdonto change from AC to DC but northbound the change happens at City Thameslink. I assume it would be considered too risky to do the southbound change at City Thameslink in case of failure.

It's sometimes mandated to do the SB changeover at CTL when Farringdon is closed to TL traffic as Elizabeth/Met line passengers could be still about.

Always surprises me as the likelihood of a train now blocking any possible return over Farringdon Junction is quite high. Not sure if signallers have some guide to hold following trains at Farringdon in such instances though ?

 

[ComUtoR]

Proceed on sight authority. Looks like an APLS but it flashes.

APLS.....

Gives permission to proceed at caution past a defective signal showing a red aspect.

Which is kinda the point. It's 'defective' signals. I'm not a Signaller but PoSA's aren't a quick fix. I'd be grateful if a Signaller could tell us when PoSA's could be used, and what their restrictions are.

With that train proceeding at caution and the implications that multiple sections are affected by the defect the use of POSA may not actually be all that likely to improve the service as much as getting the problem fixed ASAP and if that's an actual track issue then NWR access is needed.

Going through the PoSAs in 'The Core' is an absolute nightmare. You trickle through them at super slow speed and then, because signals are so close, end up 'preparing to stop' anyway.

It's also worth remembering that the rule book (rightly or wrongly) requires that a driver make use of the "best" form of signalling available. That means drivers still using ETCS and POSA usage under ETCS is laboriously slow. On site mode in this case steps up in tiny 60m increments bringing the train to a near stop each time.

Yep, on a bad day it's Hell on Earth. Even on a goo day, PoSAs are a pain in the bum. (still, I like them)

Ultimately good for a quick fix on one section going down but if it delays a more permanent fix or covers multiple sections then using BI DI would be quicker I'd imagine.

Bi-Di is a problem in 'The Core' Trains stack up so quick, it causes problems getting trains clear of the crossovers and then holding services so that you can drop services back to normal running. I haven't driven 'The Core' for a while and I'd be interested to hear from current GTR folks about their daily issues and concerns. Headways are so tight, delays and congestion mounts up in literal seconds.

 

[Mattydo]

It does seem that PoSA use was in place through two signals at the start of this. If it's not now then I'm only aware of that via this forum as I haven't seen the latest service updates (and I'm on a rest day!)

My only understanding of restrictions is that if no main aspect is able to be shown then drivers need to be informed before they can accept the PoSA and trains using ERTMS cannot be authorised by a PoSA without a main aspect showing. No idea the reason for the latter I'm afraid as the driver side of the information is kind of matter of fact.

I've not driven wrong road through the core except in getting out of Smithfields despite a few years of it being my line of route which shows you how infrequently it happens. As you say it's ponderous at best and obviously 3-aspect signalling, larger sections, (and a few signals that will bite you if you're not paying attention), can, when added to unfamiliarity, make the process quite slow. (also it's a 20mph PSR so even if you're running green it's hardly quick).

PoSA and Bi-Di are to keep a service running but certainly not the usual 18tph service hence the V/O services being moved to hourly alternates and the J spinning at KX. Looks like K/L also suspended and P operating as a shuttle but that may vary throughout the day I'm imagine.

Trying to throw more trains into the core than it can handle will quickly translate to issues on the midland, east coast and southern routes too so, whilst it must be awful to try and navigate it all there is a reason to the service reduction.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It does seem that PoSA use was in place through two signals at the start of this. If it's not now then I'm only aware of that via this forum as I haven't seen the latest service updates (and I'm on a rest day!)

My only understanding of restrictions is that if no main aspect is able to be shown then drivers need to be informed before they can accept the PoSA and trains using ERTMS cannot be authorised by a PoSA without a main aspect showing. No idea the reason for the latter I'm afraid as the driver side of the information is kind of matter of fact.

I've not driven wrong road through the core except in getting out of Smithfields despite a few years of it being my line of route which shows you how infrequently it happens. As you say it's ponderous at best and obviously 3-aspect signalling, larger sections, (and a few signals that will bite you if you're not paying attention), can, when added to unfamiliarity, make the process quite slow. (also it's a 20mph PSR so even if you're running green it's hardly quick).

PoSA and Bi-Di are to keep a service running but certainly not the usual 18tph service hence the V/O services being moved to hourly alternates and the J spinning at KX. Looks like K/L also suspended and P operating as a shuttle but that may vary throughout the day I'm imagine.

Trying to throw more trains into the core than it can handle will quickly translate to issues on the midland, east coast and southern routes too so, whilst it must be awful to try and navigate it all there is a reason to the service reduction.

Whilst these incidents are infrequent (mind you not as infrequent as they should be for a modern installation) they have huge implications for the services. It was for this reason that it has a higher level of access provision than other routes yet here we are again with half the services gone follwing closure all day yesterday. As usual the Redhill line gets hit hardest with 9R's all canned and majority of 9J's leaving the a Southern 4 Car 377 to cover until the few Southern peak hour extras.

 

[ComUtoR]

I certainly don't miss driving through it. I never done Bi-Di but got caught up in running PoSA to PoSA many times. Sitting southbound outside City was my horrible. You get all that way and then sit there watching trains go in front. Sitting on that signal just outside Blackfriars was my worst nightmare; especially in a 700 as they tended to roll back !

 

[Mattydo]

I certainly don't miss driving through it. I never done Bi-Di but got caught up in running PoSA to PoSA many times. Sitting southbound outside City was my horrible. You get all that way and then sit there watching trains go in front. Sitting on that signal just outside Blackfriars was my worst nightmare; especially in a 700 as they tended to roll back !

Yes, you have to be incredibly deliberate with the PBC pause at the off position. If you move past it too quickly the holding brake releases and traction is inhibited. An odd logic.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jun 2023 ==

Whilst these incidents are infrequent (mind you not as infrequent as they should be for a modern installation) they have huge implications for the services. It was for this reason that it has a higher level of access provision than other routes yet here we are again with half the services gone follwing closure all day yesterday. As usual the Redhill line gets hit hardest with 9R's all canned and majority of 9J's leaving the a Southern 4 Car 377 to cover until the few Southern peak hour extras.

Oh I do sympathise. Not so much an excuse as a reason for the cancellations whether or not PoSA is in use. Not that it helps I imagine. Yes the Romeo's do tend to feel the heat before the quarry line routes I'm afraid. It seems to be a set plan and so I guess there is reasoning to it but afraid that's well above my pay grade.

 

[Bald Rick]

Why can't they use POSA?

“They” were.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Off topic but noticed a T3 possession today past st Pancras. 30mins ago at Farringdon due to the service had to board the train to St Pancras that would then turn into my Sutton bound train but midway thru many Brighton passengers boarded on and then off and then in around a mix of also confused Suttion passengers before the train displays corrected for the turn round to Sutton.

Seemed like pandemonium at St Pancras.

 

[Horizon22]

Off topic but noticed a T3 possession today past st Pancras. 30mins ago at Farringdon due to the service had to board the train to St Pancras that would then turn into my Sutton bound train but midway thru many Brighton passengers boarded on and then off and then in around a mix of also confused Suttion passengers before the train displays corrected for the turn round to Sutton.

Seemed like pandemonium at St Pancras.

Discussed here:

Thameslink Overrunning Engineering Works (18/19th June)

GTR have tweeted there will be a very reduced service on Monday - this was at 2300 on Sunday, so probably most people are asleep. https://twitter.com/tlrailuk/status/1670551791287558145? Due to engineering works not being finished on time there will be a very reduced service in operation...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[NSEWonderer]

Discussed here:

Thameslink Overrunning Engineering Works (18/19th June)

GTR have tweeted there will be a very reduced service on Monday - this was at 2300 on Sunday, so probably most people are asleep. https://twitter.com/tlrailuk/status/1670551791287558145? Due to engineering works not being finished on time there will be a very reduced service in operation...

www.railforums.co.uk

Thanks