Issues with Great Northern services out of Moorgate

[rmHawk765]

This may delve into speculative discussion a little, can be moved if needed.

I've talked about this on the forum before but never made a full post about it (apart from speculative discussion). Is it just me, or are the ECML inner suburban lines out of Moorgate starting to lack capacity due to a number of limiting factors, particularly at peak?

By Finsbury Park in the evening peak, Down trains can be very packed. And off-peak, the shoddy 2tph schedule makes the service rather inconvenient to use, with occasional excessive crowding as well.

The other problem, mostly at peak again, appears to be that 6 coach trains simply aren't enough.

The service is 4tph on both to Welwyn and on the Hertford Loop at peak, and it raises the question of whether increasing the service but continuing to use 6-coach trains would even have a major impact.

This brings me onto my opinion that the 717 order was somewhat short-sighted - it was created to maximise capacity with the existing platforms, which it has successfully done, but it didn't exactly factor in an increase in passenger numbers, like what can be seen now.

I don't know how difficult it would be to lengthen the platforms, particularly on the Northern City Line, to allow 8 or 12 coach trains where it is not so already, i.e most of the inner suburban ECML stations - however it seems like such a project could prove very beneficial if possible.

You also have the option of running to King's Cross to avoid lengthening the platforms on the NCL specifically.

Does anyone else feel the lines are not up to scratch capacity-wise now, and that GTR could've planned better for the future with the 717 order?

 

[Trainguy34]

Personally, I'd say that the most cost-effective idea would be to just run more trains on the current infrastructure. 16tph would be good if possible, but would involve stepping back probably at Moorgate. (8tph Stevenage via Hertford Loop, 4tph Gordon Hill and 4tph Welwyn via ECML)

 

[Class15]

Personally, I'd say that the most cost-effective idea would be to just run more trains on the current infrastructure. 16tph would be good if possible, but would involve stepping back probably at Moorgate. (8tph Stevenage via Hertford Loop, 4tph Gordon Hill and 4tph Welwyn via ECML)

I’d say that 8tph is probably overkill to Stevenage. 4tph of those terminating at Hertford North might be better.

 

[Trainguy34]

I’d say that 8tph is probably overkill to Stevenage. 4tph of those terminating at Hertford North might be better.

I didn't actually realise there was a bay there, in that case 2 or 4tph terminating would be a good idea

 

[rmHawk765]

I didn't actually realise there was a bay there, in that case 2 or 4tph terminating would be a good idea

At peak some of the two extra services per hour do indeed only go as far as Hertford or Gordon Hill

 

[bramling]

This may delve into speculative discussion a little, can be moved if needed.

I've talked about this on the forum before but never made a full post about it (apart from speculative discussion). Is it just me, or are the ECML inner suburban lines out of Moorgate starting to lack capacity due to a number of limiting factors, particularly at peak? By Finsbury Park in the evening peak, Down trains can be very packed. And off-peak, the shoddy 2tph schedule makes the service rather inconvenient to use, with occasional excessive crowding as well. The other problem, mostly at peak again, appears to be that 6 coach trains simply aren't enough. The service is 4tph on both to Welwyn and on the Hertford Loop at peak, and it raises the question of whether increasing the service but continuing to use 6-coach trains would even have a major impact. This brings me onto my opinion that the 717 order was somewhat short-sighted - it was created to maximise capacity with the existing platforms, which it has successfully done, but it didn't exactly factor in an increase in passenger numbers, like what can be seen now. I don't know how difficult it would be to lengthen the platforms, particularly on the Northern City Line, to allow 8 or 12 coach trains where it is not so already, i.e most of the inner suburban ECML stations - however it seems like such a project could prove very beneficial if possible. You also have the option of running to King's Cross to avoid lengthening the platforms on the NCL specifically.

Does anyone else feel the lines are not up to scratch capacity-wise now, and that GTR could've planned better for the future with the 717 order?

Lengthening Moorgate would be an absolutely massive expense, as there are physical features at both ends of the platforms. You could use SDO elsewhere (albeit not ideal), though some other locations would have issues as well.

I don’t think this is really the solution. The real problem at the moment is the timetable being run is still a slimmed-down post-Covid-era one, so there is a lot of capacity sitting unused in the form of the 717 fleet not being utilised anywhere near as much as intended.

If there was a need for some extra capacity then potentially sending some Thameslink services down the two inner-suburban routes is also a potential longer term possibility.

 

[rmHawk765]

I’d say that 8tph is probably overkill to Stevenage. 4tph of those terminating at Hertford North might be better.

The only station in between is Watton at Stone which just serves two small villages so 4tph would be fine for that section, yes. And in fact if you want to get down to London from there you're actually better off heading to Stevenage and getting a fast service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2025 ==

I don’t think this is really the solution. The real problem at the moment is the timetable being run is still a slimmed-down post-Covid-era one, so there is a lot of capacity sitting unused in the form of the 717 fleet not being utilised anywhere near as much as intended.

The post-COVID GN timetables, not just here but across the ECML IMO, are really rather abysmal sometimes. And now returning to the pre-COVID services might not even prove enough. But the problem is, for a significant increase in services here, I feel the 25 717s might not even be enough. This obviously brings you onto using alternative rolling stock, but this poses a bit of a problem in itself. The 4 coach 387s might not offer enough capacity, but a complete platform lengthening would be needed to allow 8 coach 387s or 700/0s to run, at which point you might as well go all the way to 12 coach. As I said, running these longer services to KGX avoids needing to lengthen the NCL platforms which is much harder than the ECML stations.

If there was a need for some extra capacity then potentially sending some Thameslink services down the two inner-suburban routes is also a potential longer term possibility.

This was something I was considering, but once again would require lengthening platforms.

 

[Failed Unit]

I think if the proposed 2018 timetable was ran, it would be fine. 8tph from ally pally - Moorgate, 4 tph to WGC, 4 to Hertford (with 2 to Stevenage)

Again the proposed 18tph in the peak would probably have covered demands especially with Thameslink moving some of the demand.

I think the peak was:

4 - Welwyn Garden
4 - Hertford North
2 - Stevenage via Hertford North (Some skipped stops)
4 - Gordon Hill

I think Harringay and Hornsey were covered by Hertford and Gordon Hill. Welwyn Garden definitely skipped them both. I know that caused some crossing but if I recall it was to try and avoid the stopper blocking the slow lines services from Cambridge and to Sevenoaks.

 

[rmHawk765]

(8tph Stevenage via Hertford Loop, 4tph Gordon Hill and 4tph Welwyn via ECML)

If you're giving the Hertford Loop 12tph up to Gordon Hill (if I understood that correctly) you should definitely give the mainline at least 6tph. Either way, I think a 6tph all day schedule for both branches is a good balance.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2025 ==

I think if the proposed 2018 timetable was ran, it would be fine. 8tph from ally pally - Moorgate, 4 tph to WGC, 4 to Hertford (with 2 to Stevenage)

Except that's exactly how I recall it pre-COVID - 4tph as far as Hertford.

2 - Stevenage via Hertford North (Some skipped stops)

This makes me wonder, if you were to add additional peak services, would a sort of Hertford flyer make any sense, stopping at only the busiest stations (i.e Finsbury, Ally Pally, Palmers Green, Winchmore Hill, Enfield, possibly Gordon Hill)?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2025 ==

I think Harringay and Hornsey were covered by Hertford and Gordon Hill. Welwyn Garden definitely skipped them both. I know that caused some crossing but if I recall it was to try and avoid the stopper blocking the slow lines services from Cambridge and to Sevenoaks.

A handful (and I mean a handful) of peak services skip both with the current timetable, supposedly for the same reason?

 

[bananas]

Lengthening Moorgate [...] You could use SDO elsewhere (albeit not ideal)

Why couldn't you use SDO at Moorgate?

 

[rmHawk765]

Why couldn't you use SDO at Moorgate?

You could, so long as you're actually using a walk-through formation, not two 717s together which wouldn't work obviously. However it's not ideal for a busy commuter service, and you would absolutely have to lengthen the platforms elsewhere on the NCL which would be just as difficult. This is is why the easiest way to get longer trains on these lines is to just run them to KGX, as it's far easier to lengthen the platforms outside of the NCL.

 

[Robski]

If you're giving the Hertford Loop 12tph up to Gordon Hill (if I understood that correctly) you should definitely give the mainline at least 6tph. Either way, I think a 6tph all day schedule for both branches is a good balance.

4tph Moorgate + 2tph Kings Cross gives 6tph on the mainline part of GN inner.

Why couldn't you use SDO at Moorgate?

Any train over 6 coaches in length would foul the crossover outside Moorgate station.

 

[rmHawk765]

Any train over 6 coaches in length would foul the crossover outside Moorgate station.

Ah yes, that too, I forgot there's very little distance from the crossovers to the platform.

 

[Failed Unit]

If you're giving the Hertford Loop 12tph up to Gordon Hill (if I understood that correctly) you should definitely give the mainline at least 6tph. Either way, I think a 6tph all day schedule for both branches is a good balance.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2025 ==


Except that's exactly how I recall it pre-COVID - 4tph as far as Hertford.


This makes me wonder, if you were to add additional peak services, would a sort of Hertford flyer make any sense, stopping at only the busiest stations (i.e Finsbury, Ally Pally, Palmers Green, Winchmore Hill, Enfield, possibly Gordon Hill)?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2025 ==


A handful (and I mean a handful) of peak services skip both with the current timetable, supposedly for the same reason?

That was the GTR plan. Remember the WGC branch has the Sevenoaks service and the Cambridge stopping. They didn’t have time to send more to WGC even if they wanted. The Hertford would have skip stops. Will see if I still have the timetable.

 

[rmHawk765]

That was the GTR plan. Remember the WGC branch has the Sevenoaks service and the Cambridge stopping. They didn’t have time to send more to WGC even if they wanted. The Hertford would have skip stops. Will see if I still have the timetable.

Oh ok I see, I don't remember too much about their plans to be honest and I can't find my pre-COVID timetables. But that does make sense, probably the first time GTR has done such a thing...

 

[Magdalia]

The other problem, mostly at peak again, appears to be that 6 coach trains simply aren't enough.

Any train over 6 coaches in length would foul the crossover outside Moorgate station.

The constraints at Moorgate means that the chances of trains longer than 6 cars are zero.

But it is possible to run more peak trains between Finsbury Park and Moorgate. There is a discussion here of the original 1976 service, and the first few years after:

Original GN Electrics timetable

I wasn't able to find a previous thread on this, but I'm interested in what the original BR timetable looked like on the Northern City line, and the outer suburban services out of King's Cross after electrification in 1976. Am I correct in thinking that all 62 class 313s were originally destined...

www.railforums.co.uk

The original peak service was 18tph. That was 9tph each route but no new line trains beyond Hertford. In those days all outer suburban trains were on the fast lines to at least Potters Bar.

I’d say that 8tph is probably overkill to Stevenage. 4tph of those terminating at Hertford North might be better.

8tph to Stevenage via Hertford is impossible. 4tph is also impossible. Given that Bragbury Junction-Stevenage P5 (reverse)-Bragbury Junction is single track and takes 16 minutes the maximum is 3tph, and that would be dodgy.

 

[choochoochoo]

Going back to pre-covid 4 tph down to hertford/wgc could alleviate some of the peak traffic as it would give those commuters more option to travel outside the peak service. It is a pain in the backside to wait 30 minutes. Even if they went back to the 'pre-pre-covid' one every 20 minutes that'd be better than nothing.

I still wonder why they didn't spend a little extra on the 717s and the ETCS upgrade to enable ATO down the NCL. Would that not have led to more trains being able to go down to Moorgate ? (I doubt it'd be the 24tph the aim to get down the core but better than what they achieve now)

 

[bramling]

If you're giving the Hertford Loop 12tph up to Gordon Hill (if I understood that correctly) you should definitely give the mainline at least 6tph. Either way, I think a 6tph all day schedule for both branches is a good balance.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2025 ==


Except that's exactly how I recall it pre-COVID - 4tph as far as Hertford.


This makes me wonder, if you were to add additional peak services, would a sort of Hertford flyer make any sense, stopping at only the busiest stations (i.e Finsbury, Ally Pally, Palmers Green, Winchmore Hill, Enfield, possibly Gordon Hill)?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2025 ==


A handful (and I mean a handful) of peak services skip both with the current timetable, supposedly for the same reason?

Welwyn doesn’t need 6tph inners. When the 4tph off-peak service was running loadings were fairly light, and even now with 2tph then can still be during parts of the weekday midday period.

It’s always been Hertford that is busier, especially at peak times.

Worth remembering though that for much of the last 30 years, the off-peak service to each branch was 3tph, with 1tph north of Hertford, and most services formed of 3-car trains. The current 2tph service of 6-car trains still offers more overall capacity.

 

[rmHawk765]

I still wonder why they didn't spend a little extra on the 717s and the ETCS upgrade to enable ATO down the NCL. Would that not have led to more trains being able to go down to Moorgate ? (I doubt it'd be the 24tph the aim to get down the core but better than what they achieve now)

On the bright side though, the whole ECML South, including the Hertford Loop, is getting an ETCS upgrade of course, so that should allow a capacity boost for the whole route.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2025 ==

I don’t think this is really the solution. The real problem at the moment is the timetable being run is still a slimmed-down post-Covid-era one, so there is a lot of capacity sitting unused in the form of the 717 fleet not being utilised anywhere near as much as intended.

Having taken a quick look on a signalling diagram, it's apparent only a few 717s are actually ever used at once off-peak. I was genuinely under the suspicion 25 wouldn't be enough for say, 6tph, but it appears even 8 on both branches is feasible with the amount of stock available.

 

[Watershed]

Welwyn doesn’t need 6tph inners. When the 4tph off-peak service was running loadings were fairly light, and even now with 2tph then can still be during parts of the weekday midday period.

It’s always been Hertford that is busier, especially at peak times.

Worth remembering though that for much of the last 30 years, the off-peak service to each branch was 3tph, with 1tph north of Hertford, and most services formed of 3-car trains. The current 2tph service of 6-car trains still offers more overall capacity.

Overall capacity is not the issue though - it's that you're leaving some pretty substantial stations with a rubbish service. 2tph at New Southgate, Oakleigh Park and New Barnet for example. Can't think of many Zone 4 stations with only a half hourly off-peak service. It's just not an attractive proposition.

 

[rmHawk765]

Overall capacity is not the issue though - it's that you're leaving some pretty substantial stations with a rubbish service. 2tph at New Southgate, Oakleigh Park and New Barnet for example. Can't think of many Zone 4 stations with only a half hourly off-peak service.

Palmers Green, Winchmore Hill and Enfield Chase are also good examples, these are all quite busy.

Capacity isn't a huge issue off peak as you say - indeed at peak even 4tph on both branches is seriously lacking for capacity, but the 2tph off peak simply makes it an incredibly inconvenient service. Half the time you're better off getting a bus to the closest tube station in all honesty if you happen to live near these stations.

 

[bramling]

On the bright side though, the whole ECML South, including the Hertford Loop, is getting an ETCS upgrade of course, so that should allow a capacity boost for the whole route.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2025 ==


Having taken a quick look on a signalling diagram, it's apparent only a few 717s are actually ever used at once off-peak. I was genuinely under the suspicion 25 wouldn't be enough for say, 6tph, but it appears even 8 on both branches is feasible with the amount of stock available.

The off-peak 717 utilisation is ridiculous. I forget what the figure is, but it’s something crazy like 9/25.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2025 ==

Overall capacity is not the issue though - it's that you're leaving some pretty substantial stations with a rubbish service. 2tph at New Southgate, Oakleigh Park and New Barnet for example. Can't think of many Zone 4 stations with only a half hourly off-peak service. It's just not an attractive proposition.

I’m not saying that 2tph is what we should be aspiring to, as I agree it certainly isn’t attractive. But equally the point stands that the Welwyn route has always had pretty modest off-peak loadings, and this includes when the 3tph and 4tph services have operated.

Worth remembering that the 2tph Cambridge trains soak up passengers from the three major stations on the route, whilst everything from Hadley Wood inwards has the Northern and/or Piccadilly lines fairly nearby, as well as a fairly comprehensive network of buses which are able to take people to these alternative options. So this essentially leaves Welham Green and Brookmans Park, both of which will always be fairly quiet.

Hertford is another matter. Firstly Hertford itself gets a fairly poor service from both its stations, on account of the number of stops between there and London. Secondly the stations on the Hertford line don’t seem to see the same effect of people gravitating towards LU that the Welwyn route does. Palmers Green, Winchmore Hill, Gordon Hill and Cuffley are all pretty well used.

 

[Fincra5]

Going back to pre-covid 4 tph down to hertford/wgc could alleviate some of the peak traffic as it would give those commuters more option to travel outside the peak service. It is a pain in the backside to wait 30 minutes. Even if they went back to the 'pre-pre-covid' one every 20 minutes that'd be better than nothing.

I still wonder why they didn't spend a little extra on the 717s and the ETCS upgrade to enable ATO down the NCL. Would that not have led to more trains being able to go down to Moorgate ? (I doubt it'd be the 24tph the aim to get down the core but better than what they achieve now)

Because it's not as simple as "just add ATO"... The Train wasn't built with it for starters!

 

[Bikeman78]

The off-peak 717 utilisation is ridiculous. I forget what the figure is, but it’s something crazy like 9/25.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2025 ==



I’m not saying that 2tph is what we should be aspiring to, as I agree it certainly isn’t attractive. But equally the point stands that the Welwyn route has always had pretty modest off-peak loadings, and this includes when the 3tph and 4tph services have operated.

Worth remembering that the 2tph Cambridge trains soak up passengers from the three major stations on the route, whilst everything from Hadley Wood inwards has the Northern and/or Piccadilly lines fairly nearby, as well as a fairly comprehensive network of buses which are able to take people to these alternative options. So this essentially leaves Welham Green and Brookmans Park, both of which will always be fairly quiet.

Hertford is another matter. Firstly Hertford itself gets a fairly poor service from both its stations, on account of the number of stops between there and London. Secondly the stations on the Hertford line don’t seem to see the same effect of people gravitating towards LU that the Welwyn route does. Palmers Green, Winchmore Hill, Gordon Hill and Cuffley are all pretty well used.

I think it is 10 off peak. They do SVG-MOG-WGC-MOG-SVG. The 1000 from Stevenage forms the 1500. Four trains on each route required 18 sets back in 2019.

 

[rmHawk765]

Four trains on each route required 18 sets back in 2019.

Going off that, my point that a 6tph service on both lines might require more than 25 units still stands.

 

[OxtedL]

Off peak it is currently 4 sets for Welwyn and 5 sets for Stevenage via Hertford.

The previous short-lived off peak 4tph timetable on each branch would have needed another 4 for Welwyn and another 4 for Hertford North. So 17.

The current peak requirement is those 17 plus two peak extras to Gordon Hill.

 

[liam456]

Is there any truth to whispers of 4tph off-peak on the GN inners coming in the May 26 timetable?

 

[whoosh]

Unless you are approaching 30tph, ordering extra trains if need be, and maybe having explored the use of an ATO retrofit to the trains and infrastructure, then you've no business going to the colossal expense of lengthening underground station platforms.

 

[rmHawk765]

Is there any truth to whispers of 4tph off-peak on the GN inners coming in the May 26 timetable?

I doubt it, don't you think they would include it in the December ECML recast?

 

[Broucek]

The 2 tph off peak is pretty lame - as noted upthread, it used to be 3 tph. It's fairly lightly used but
anecdotally (I'm local to the area), people travelling from Palmers Green are more likely to get a bus to the Picc Line at Wood Green or Southgate. And Bowes Park and New Southgate both have walkable Picc Line alternatives.