Issues with Carnet Tickets

[12CSVT]

That is not entrapment. The passengers choose to lie about where they travelled from entirely of their own volition.

Here is one of the threads I was referring to. If this isn't entrapment then I don't know what is.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=64517&highlight=glossop+ticket

 

[route:oxford]

Ok, if there is a problem with using pens on glossy surfaces...

What's to stop people using dry-wipe pens on the tickets?

 

[benk1342]

Ok, if there is a problem with using pens on glossy surfaces...

What's to stop people using dry-wipe pens on the tickets?

The standard carnet-checking method seems to be wiping one's thumb across the pen-written date to see if it easily rubs away (ostensibly revealing an intention to reuse the ticket). So using a dry-wipe pen would result in hassle/penalty fares/prosecution.

I think the official line is we are supposed to use permanent markers. Because we all carry a Sharpie around with us.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

The standard carnet-checking method seems to be wiping one's thumb across the pen-written date to see if it easily rubs away (ostensibly revealing an intention to reuse the ticket). So using a dry-wipe pen would result in hassle/penalty fares/prosecution.

I think the official line is we are supposed to use permanent markers. Because we all carry a Sharpie around with us.

They should offer a suitable marker eg for 50p - £1-00 when a Carnet is purchased!
Better still a date stamping machine in the ticket hall.
New barriers should be able to stamp tickets. Probably many are already fitted or easily converted to stamping tickets.
Dissuade passengers thinking to reuse a ticket, or muddle up tickets as it is then obviously been used.

 

[island]

Or they could retain tickets at the end of the journey so they couldn't be reused.

Hey, wait a second...

 

[benk1342]

Or they could retain tickets at the end of the journey so they couldn't be reused.

Hey, wait a second...

I have never had a ticket of any kind retained at Welwyn Garden City. I have a feeling they have the barriers set to give back all tickets so that they never have to empty the machine.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They should offer a suitable marker eg for 50p - £1-00 when a Carnet is purchased!

I have always assumed that if you asked at the ticket office they would have a pen you could use. I've never tried it though.

Better still a date stamping machine in the ticket hall.
New barriers should be able to stamp tickets. Probably many are already fitted or easily converted to stamping tickets.

I suspect the TOCs do not think it would be worth the extra cost of installing all that equipment.

 

[jon0844]

At KGX you keep the ticket for London Terminals as you could use the tube to Old St or Moorgate. However when returning to Hatfield, my ticket is retained.

In fact, the tickets work fine everywhere (including when I break my journey at FPK sometimes) bar Hatfield when starting - giving error 115 almost every single time. Yes, to confuse matters, some have worked!

I have a pen in my rucksack that usually always works on the tickets but I don't always take my bag. Gateline staff have given me their pens and they're usually just biros.

 

[Yew]

I think the official line is we are supposed to use permanent markers. Because we all carry a Sharpie around with us.

Unfortunately it is easier to remove permanent markers/CD markers than Biro, high street shops stock permenent marker removal solvents that will work on the glossy surface of a rail ticket.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Blackpool North retains your ticket. Going home in the evening, probably the barriers would be in use as you board, but more likely to be open at your destination. Tempting to reuse it! Could be a free ride or a very expensive mistake?

 

[Tibbs]

Blackpool North retains your ticket. Going home in the evening, probably the barriers would be in use as you board, but more likely to be open at your destination. Tempting to reuse it! Could be a free ride or a very expensive mistake?

You'll get away with it until you don't.

Then it could get expensive...

 

[snail]

Here is one of the threads I was referring to. If this isn't entrapment then I don't know what is.

No, you don't then. The actions of the RPI in the thread you quote could be thought of as malicious prosecution but entrapment is to induce someone to commit an offence. Stopping and accusing someone after they have committed an offence of their own volition - walking past a ticket office, claiming to have boarded at a different station, failing to date a carnet ticket - however innocently, is not entrapment.

 

[Tibbs]

No, you don't then. The actions of the RPI in the thread you quote could be thought of as malicious prosecution but entrapment is to induce someone to commit an offence. Stopping and accusing someone after they have committed an offence of their own volition - walking past a ticket office, claiming to have boarded at a different station, failing to date a carnet ticket - however innocently, is not entrapment.

Asking someone a question in a way that it's difficult for them to answer in a way that doesn't incrimminate themselves in ths situation counts as entrapment, in my mind at least.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

This crops up every few months. Entrapment is not 'he asked me a difficult question'. Entrapment is a person in authority inducing someone to commit a crime. If the crime has been committed without inducement then it is not entrapment.

 

[Tibbs]

This crops up every few months. Entrapment is not 'he asked me a difficult question'. Entrapment is a person in authority inducing someone to commit a crime. If the crime has been committed without inducement then it is not entrapment.

The issue isn't whether the question is difficult or easy. The issue is whether the question constructed in a way that increases the likelihood that the responder will give the 'wrong' answer.

Actually the crux of the issue is that TOCs are willing to prosecute innocent travellers so they don't miss guilty people. This totally goes against the ethos of law in this country.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

The issue isn't whether the question is difficult or easy. The issue is whether the question constructed in a way that increases the likelihood that the responder will give the 'wrong' answer.

Still not entrapment I'm afraid.

Actually the crux of the issue is that TOCs are willing to prosecute innocent travellers so they don't miss guilty people. This totally goes against the ethos of law in this country.

If someone commits a ticketing offence, then they are not innocent however unfair you might think it is.

 

[island]

Asking someone a question in a way that it's difficult for them to answer in a way that doesn't incrimminate themselves in ths situation counts as entrapment, in my mind at least.

But it doesn't. The RPI is attempting to get someone to confess to a criminal offence they have already committed, not to commit one. And the passenger has the right to remain silent.

 

[michael769]

The issue isn't whether the question is difficult or easy. The issue is whether the question constructed in a way that increases the likelihood that the responder will give the 'wrong' answer.

That is what is known as a 'loaded question'

Entrapment would be where a RPI told someone to just get on the train without a ticket, knowing that a colleague was waiting on the train to "do" them.

 

[Tibbs]

That is what is known as a 'loaded question'

Entrapment would be where a RPI told someone to just get on the train without a ticket, knowing that a colleague was waiting on the train to "do" them.

You can call it a red banana for all I care, and debate the semantics as dogmatically as you like, it's still wrong to prosecute people who get 'caught' trying to do something right but through accident or design of the TOCs wind up getting it wrong.

 

[michael769]

You can call it a red banana for all I care, and debate the semantics as dogmatically as you like, it's still wrong to prosecute people who get 'caught' trying to do something right but through accident or design of the TOCs wind up getting it wrong.

I don't understand how this point relates to the issue of RPIs asking loaded questions??????

 

[island]

You can call it a red banana for all I care, and debate the semantics as dogmatically as you like, it's still wrong to prosecute people who get 'caught' trying to do something right but through accident or design of the TOCs wind up getting it wrong.

What part of travelling without a ticket and attempting to buy one for a lower fare than the correct fare is "trying to do something right"?

 

[Tibbs]

I don't understand how this point relates to the issue of RPIs asking loaded questions??????

Because people on here are saying it's not entrapment. Arguing over what it is is irrelevant when it's the starting point (all people who arrive at a gate without a ticket for whatever reason are thieving scumbags) that is so wrong.

What part of travelling without a ticket and attempting to buy one for a lower fare than the correct fare is "trying to do something right"?

If you read the thread properly the OP never said that - she said that she would have bought a ticket on the way back. She later clarified that she meant a return. The other posters assumed (which seemed to happen a lot on that thread) she meant a single. The comment about the small difference in price between a single and a return was made as an aside.

/edit

And while I think about it my reply to "What would you have done had I not been here?" in the other thread would have been "but you are here - can I buy a ticket from you or do I need to go elsewhere?" or "I don't answer hypothetical questions - could you tell me where I need to buy my ticket please?"