Issues with ADL E350H and E400H(Classic)

[computerSaysNo]

To avoid confusion I'll clarify now that when I say "E400H" I'm always referring to the Classic model (not the MMC or the City) unless explicitly stated otherwise.
Many operators of the Alexander Dennis Enviro400H outside of London seem to have issues with them; for example Lothian Buses converted all of theirs to straight diesel and First Glasgow currently have all of theirs stored as long term out of use. This seems to contrast with operators in London who seem to still operate large fleets of E400Hs without apparent issue, for example Abellio London operate almost 90. Why are non-London operators having less luck with them than London operators even on similar urban duties?

On a related note, operators of E350Hs seem not to like them much, for example all of Stagecoach Bluebird's models are currently out of use. Why have ADL had much more success with hybrid double-deck models in London than with hybrid single-deck models? I'm not aware of any E200Hs or E350Hs operating in London, but, as above, plenty of E400Hs.

 

[MotCO]

You can add Reading to the list of convertees.

In London, maybe it is because the tender specifies hybrid buses, so they can't be converted except to full EV.

 

[duncombec]

I believe there is significant cost in replacing the batteries in the first generation hybrids, and many operators have found it cheaper to convert to regular diesel than to replace the batteries or convert further.

I'm not sure there is a "problem" as such, just a limitation of first-generation technology.

 

[computerSaysNo]

I believe there is significant cost in replacing the batteries in the first generation hybrids, and many operators have found it cheaper to convert to regular diesel than to replace the batteries or convert further.

I'm not sure there is a "problem" as such, just a limitation of first-generation technology.

Ahh, that makes sense. Couldn't they just be left to operate as diesel-electric though? I.e. remove the traction batteries completely but leave the drivetrain as diesel generator to alternator to electric motor? I would think this would still result in better fuel economy than straight diesel?

 

[Surreyman]

You can add Reading to the list of convertees.

In London, maybe it is because the tender specifies hybrid buses, so they can't be converted except to full EV.

Go-Ahead - Oxford & I think G-A East Yorkshire too.

 

[JD2168]

In Sheffield none of the E400H at Stagecoach Sheffield Holbrook depot have been converted to Diesel only, all are still using the batteries as normal.

 

[fgwrich]

Speaking of Stagecoach hybrids for a moment, and without wishing to start a new thread, are the Oxford hybrids that unreliable that they're heading for scrap already?

stagecoach oxford 12011 OU10GGZ & 12001 OU10GGA

2 of a growing number of hybrid E400s at the scrapyards

www.flickr.com

Whilst not 'technically with it' the batteries on electric/hybrids require replacement after a number of years. The cost of so doing outstrips the net book value of the vehicle. So now we see buses prematurely scrapped just over halfway through their normal working life.

Just cross threading for a moment, Stagecoach Oxford seems to be sending theirs for scrap already. M803UYA provided a helpful reason as to why - though it still seems somewhat crazy!

 

[Mikey C]

Wouldn't hybrid buses without the battery be really slow, seeing that they usually have a smaller engine than regular diesel buses?

 

[Adtrainsam]

On a related note, operators of E350Hs seem not to like them much, for example all of Stagecoach Bluebird's models are currently out of use. Why have ADL had much more success with hybrid double-deck models in London than with hybrid single-deck models? I'm not aware of any E200Hs or E350Hs operating in London, but, as above, plenty of E400Hs.

TfL don’t usually specify full-length single deckers (12m), usually opting for double decking of a route rather than increase vehicle length (unless physical restrictions like low bridges apply). This is likely why there aren’t any E350Hs or standard E300s for that matter within London.

On another note, the 4 E350Hs at First Essex are absolutely atrocious in ride quality. Poor suspension and constant rattling combined with first generation hybrid technology is a major headache for drivers and engineers. Probably why they aren’t popular - not just in London but the wider market.

 

[Eyersey468]

It wasn't just cost that made East Yorkshire convert their E400Hs to straight diesel, it was done partly to improve reliability as well

 

[Hullian111]

It wasn't just cost that made East Yorkshire convert their E400Hs to straight diesel, it was done partly to improve reliability as well

Pfft, reliability? One of them that I photographed earlier this month on Holderness Road sounded like a right bag of spanners as it passed by. It was also one of those which was the only bus that’s ever broke down on me while riding it, too.

 

[Eyersey468]

Pfft, reliability? One of them that I photographed earlier this month on Holderness Road sounded like a right bag of spanners as it passed by. It was also one of those which was the only bus that’s ever broke down on me while riding it, too.

Our E400Hs before conversion were very unreliable. I should have been more specific and said try to improve reliability.

 

[Jordan Adam]

On a related note, operators of E350Hs seem not to like them much, for example all of Stagecoach Bluebird's models are currently out of use. Why have ADL had much more success with hybrid double-deck models in London than with hybrid single-deck models? I'm not aware of any E200Hs or E350Hs operating in London, but, as above, plenty of E400Hs.

They're not just out of use, they're withdrawn and pending disposal. Most of them were knackered by the end, not just mechanically but also internally they were falling apart

Wouldn't hybrid buses without the battery be really slow, seeing that they usually have a smaller engine than regular diesel buses?

The Enviro350H and Enviro400H are a series hybrid, the engine acts as a generator providing electricity to the batteries which then in turn powers the motors, therefor it wouldn't be possible to run them on the engine only. For comparison a Volvo B5LH is a parallel hybrid, which essentially is just a standard diesel bus but with electric assist.

Another thing to note is that due to the design of the Enviro350H it wouldn't be possible to convert them to diesel like some operators have done with Enviro400Hs as there isn't anywhere for the driveline to go, the only options are to renew the Hybrid system or convert them to full battery electric.

 

[Snow1964]

London Operators have had multiple problems with their earlier E400H hybrids, some have been withdrawn due to lack of parts and others are long term out of use with parts missing

As examples
RATP had 78, of which 4 withdrawn and 10 out of use
Metroline had 60, of which 10 withdrawn and 12 out of use
Abellio had 86, of which 7 out of use

(looked up numbers quickly so might have slightly miscounted, and have defined out of use as not used for least 10 days)

I suspect the current tender requirements are influencing London double deck hybrids (choice of zero emission eg electric or hydrogen, or existing hybrids, but no new contracts for existing diesels).

 

[MCR247]

Does this battery replacement issue affect all hybrids or any ones which use the batter in series? Do later Enviro 400Hs such as MMC suffer the same issues? Or will they?

 

[RELL6L]

I don’t know about the technical stuff but it does seem strange that some operators have kept these going, either by replacing the batteries or converting to straight diesel while others have scrapped them. Stagecoach 12xxx E400Hs still have most on the road, although there were a number of thermal incidents. London ones are perhaps 80% still going. Meanwhile First seem to have scrapped everything.

Query here - what about the LTs? Aren’t these series driveline also? None of these have been converted to straight diesel and just one to straight electric and most are still running. Don’t they have the same issues?

 

[Volvodart]

It was said that Stagecoach opted for a 10 year warranty, but I have no proof of that as the reason that they lasted longer.

 

[MCR247]

I don’t know about the technical stuff but it does seem strange that some operators have kept these going, either by replacing the batteries or converting to straight diesel while others have scrapped them. Stagecoach 12xxx E400Hs still have most on the road, although there were a number of thermal incidents. London ones are perhaps 80% still going. Meanwhile First seem to have scrapped everything.

Query here - what about the LTs? Aren’t these series driveline also? None of these have been converted to straight diesel and just one to straight electric and most are still running. Don’t they have the same issues?

I believe they need/needed a battery replacement as part of their mid life refurbishment works

 

[Mikey C]

I remember the early Wright hybrids in London, the Eclipse Gemini HEV, which was a series hybrid with a puny Ford engine, and desperately slow as a result!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Stagecoach 12xxx E400Hs still have most on the road, although there were a number of thermal incidents. London ones are perhaps 80% still going. Meanwhile First seem to have scrapped everything.

First didn't have that many IIRC. They had 10 in Glasgow that are now in a yard running down the depreciation. Bath received 8 - they were parked up in 2018 and later converted to Euro VI diesel. However, they were pulled off the road as the engine mountings were failing (I believe). One is now back in service though

 

[MotCO]

I believe they need/needed a battery replacement as part of their mid life refurbishment works

Did they have to have new batteries early on in their lives? I recall a 'scandal' when buses where hardly ever in battery mode, until some modification was done - was that replacement batteries?