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It is sometime since I've seen one but with the system we have at my heritage railway you have to swipe the card, when it prompts for the pin instead of putting the pin in you press the red button on the card reader and the system then goes to an online authorisation if this is successful it prints out a signature receipt. If the customer puts the pin in the machine the transaction is declined. It was mainly Dutch customers on cruise ships pre pandemic so it may be that the system can no longer accept them.
5g
It is sometime since I've seen one but with the system we have at my heritage railway you have to swipe the card, when it prompts for the pin instead of putting the pin in you press the red button on the card reader and the system then goes to an online authorisation if this is successful it prints out a signature receipt. If the customer puts the pin in the machine the transaction is declined. It was mainly Dutch customers on cruise ships pre pandemic so it may be that the system can no longer accept them.
This is the way Hong Kong cards worked as well. When the system asks for the PIN on a credit card, just press the enter button and the transaction will go through.
Yes, they can. I think the issue with the OP's card is more likely to be the time lag for an authorisation to be given by an overseas bank - they can be very slow and cause the machine to 'time out'.
Only if you have access to - and can use - appropriate technology. Perhaps people having difficulty with, say, PIN cards would also have difficulty with on-line tickets, and might have no way of displaying them.
Whilst RailForums does have a penchant for imagining that every train carries a blind, deaf, wheelchair-using passenger who gets on and off at unstaffed request stops, uses a Nokia 3310, and whose only methods of payment are an expired Rail Travel voucher with a barcode that doesn't scan, a Scottish £100 note, and a bag of Maundy money, back in the real world it is not considered necessary to accommodate every last theoretical situation; procedures that can deal with 90-99% of passengers are just fine.
Yes and swipe and sign is how it should be done on the railway, but only at a ticket office. As you say they absolutely have the ability to do this and if they refuse then a complaint to the operator in question needs to be made.
It shouldn't happen but I suspect some of the issue relates to either poor training or a misunderstanding of the training. At our TOC staff are told not to accept swipes from cards with chip and pin/contactless functionality due to the fraud risk, so I could understand how that might be misunderstood as just "do not accept swipes" (without considering what would happen with non-chip cards, especially given the tiny numbers of them about in the UK).
I have a non British bank account and the card from my main account does not feature contactless (so I can't use it as a ticket) but it also doesn't have a chip that can be inserted, and to use it you have to swipe and sign the receipt. When using this card at tvm's it thinks about it and then rejects it with a red error message, and at the counter I'm told "only contactless, no swiping" even though their machines have a strip for swiping and the screen says "tap insert or swipe card".
Has anyone else had any similar issues or could offer some advice as to why the toc in question dont like swiping?
It works fine literally everywhere else in the UK, idk why it doesn't work on the railways..
Probably easiest just to switch to a U.K. based account, if you’re spending a significant amount of time here?
The last time I had to swipe, due to a problem with a newsagent’s card machine, was years ago. I hadn’t even signed the card so had to sign that first in front of the shopkeeper, then the receipt!
Whilst RailForums does have a penchant for imagining that every train carries a blind, deaf, wheelchair-using passenger who gets on and off at unstaffed request stops, uses a Nokia 3310, and whose only methods of payment are an expired Rail Travel voucher with a barcode that doesn't scan, a Scottish £100 note, and a bag of Maundy money, back in the real world it is not considered necessary to accommodate every last theoretical situation; procedures that can deal with 90-99% of passengers are just fine.
Sometimes the magnetic readers are ineffective or dirty. My Nectar card is old and only has a mag strip. Sometimes it takes several swipes before it’s read,if at all.
All our old on train ticket machines Star Mobile ,Avantix etc would readily allow swiping but these new TTK devices will instruct the user to swipe and sign for foreign cards but then will not read the card or cough and abort the transaction.
I can assure you from long personal experience that the vast majority of people using swipe-and-sign in Australia are visitors from the USA. Swipe-and-PIN is still possible, but now very rare.
As i said, Australian issued cards have improved in the last few years but were lagging well behind. Chip and sign is now fairly normal and swipe and sign is often the only way despite newer cards having a chip.
Do ticket offices have 'conventional' card machines though? My local station ticket office has a card machine the size of a small calculator, can certainly do contactless and chip & PIN- don't think it has a card swiping interface...
I suspect most do. There shouldn't be too much of a problem to just type the number in as "customer not present" although this may be against local rules.
But if we flip it on its head, it's so rare that it isn't a particular strain on resources to just do the transaction in whatever form.
It puzzles me that the attitude to there being such a small number of these types of transactions is "abolish them, say no, tough luck they'll have to find another way". This is the type of attitude our foreign visitors will see and remember from trying to use the laughing stock that is the UK railway. We really do deserve all the negative press we get around the world for this type of thing. If 1 in 100000 transactions requires someone, a visitor to our country, paying money into our economy to write a squiggle on a bit of paper in order to pay comparatively astronomical amounts to be let down and delayed on our railway then i think we should probably see our way to accommodating their needs.
That is not simply discouraged but disabled in our systems as it breaches the card industry security standards. No staff should be able to access a card number in full.
That is not simply discouraged but disabled in our systems as it breaches the card industry security standards. No staff should be able to access a card number in full.
The point being made is that the use case for ToD using mag stripe is not essential. Some TVMs, at least, will already read a card contactlessly for ToD verification and there is no reason they cannot be reading the chip instead of the mag stripe.
The railway attitude is very much 'the customer is always wrong'. Any non- featherbedded business makes it easy for people to pay, because they need their money.
No UK banks issue magstripe only cards, nor any European ones - it's pretty much just the US plus perhaps a few random small Eastern European states. I would be utterly astonished if the intersection of the sets "people who can't use any form of online ticket" and "people who have travelled to the UK alone and will be travelling by rail" was anything other than 0.
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Certainly non-zero. Amongst people I know who're fairly frequent (though not commuter) users of the railways, and who have not the slightest problem travelling alone, I can think of two instances of people in no position to deal easily (or at all) with on-line ticketing, and needing to get a physical ticket at the station. And in one case not in a position to use a pin either (having a chip-and-signature card). Certain sorts of vision problems, certain sorts of dexterity problems, and certain sorts of "brain problems", can all be reasons why such people exist. And that's apart from those many people who have technological/security objections to on-line purchases.
Indeed, i remember an instance just a few years ago of someone without photo ID (a significant minority of the population) struggling for weeks to open a bank account so as to receive the money they needed to live on, which they weren't allowed to receive other than via a bank account.
The implementation of MasterCard SecureCode and whatever Visa call it varies from bank to bank. Some involve an app (e.g. Monzo), some involve a text message, some involve a pre-defined PIN (but not the same one used for cash withdrawal) of which you'd typically be asked maybe two or three digits, some involve other secure personal information or password. I believe it's moving to app or SMS only, though, which some of the RailUK Forums Luddites won't like
Remember your history! Luddites weren't anti-technology; they were against changes in technology which increased rather than decreased disparities, inequality and unfairness in society.
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Whilst RailForums does have a penchant for imagining that every train carries a blind, deaf, wheelchair-using passenger who gets on and off at unstaffed request stops, uses a Nokia 3310, and whose only methods of payment are an expired Rail Travel voucher with a barcode that doesn't scan, a Scottish £100 note, and a bag of Maundy money, back in the real world it is not considered necessary to accommodate every last theoretical situation; procedures that can deal with 90-99% of passengers are just fine.
The fact that 90% of passengers can cope easily with something doesn't mean that other options should be abandoned. Maybe the 10% who would have difficulty, or might even not be able to use trains at all, should be catered for as a matter of course when the want to access a public service? After all, they're likely to be amongst the most disadvantaged in society already, without telling them they have to live without being able to travel...
As i said, Australian issued cards have improved in the last few years but were lagging well behind. Chip and sign is now fairly normal and swipe and sign is often the only way despite newer cards having a chip.
Don't know the last time you were in Australia but Mastercard and Visa credit and debit cards all have had chip for over 10 years with PIN usage for 8 years. It is only non-Australian scheme cards that are permitted to sign. See https://www.visa.com.au/about-visa/...-signature-with-pin-at-the-point-of-sale.html
Generally, currently, most transactions up to AUD 200 are Contactless with anything over being Contactless plus PIN.
The only non-chip cards are old style eftpos CHQ/ SAV non-Visa/Mastercard cards.
The point being made is that the use case for ToD using mag stripe is not essential. Some TVMs, at least, will already read a card contactlessly for ToD verification and there is no reason they cannot be reading the chip instead of the mag stripe.
Don't know the last time you were in Australia but Mastercard and Visa credit and debit cards all have had chip for over 10 years with PIN usage for 8 years. It is only non-Australian scheme cards that are permitted to sign. See https://www.visa.com.au/about-visa/...-signature-with-pin-at-the-point-of-sale.html
Generally, currently, most transactions up to AUD 200 are Contactless with anything over being Contactless plus PIN.
The only non-chip cards are old style eftpos CHQ/ SAV non-Visa/Mastercard cards.
We aren’t talking about ‘foreign’ cards in their home country though, we are talking about ‘foreign’ cards in the UK. My point was about Australian cards in the UK.
That timeline seems to fit in with what I said. My wife (an Australian citizen) got her first card with pin usage (and possibly a chip too) in about 2015/16. But regardless of what works over there, using that card over here was sometimes chip and sign, sometimes swipe and sign and never an issue. She did get one with contactless later on (I believe it had been available for longer). That would sometimes work without issue but as with all contactless cards, it would occasionally ask for the card to be entered, which became chip and sign and at least once would only accept a swipe and sign.
Certainly non-zero. Amongst people I know who're fairly frequent (though not commuter) users of the railways, and who have not the slightest problem travelling alone, I can think of two instances of people in no position to deal easily (or at all) with on-line ticketing, and needing to get a physical ticket at the station.
Indeed, i remember an instance just a few years ago of someone without photo ID (a significant minority of the population) struggling for weeks to open a bank account so as to receive the money they needed to live on, which they weren't allowed to receive other than via a bank account.
Certainly the UK has an issue in requiring photo ID without having an official, affordable scheme for providing it to non drivers. But that is a different discussion.
Remember your history! Luddites weren't anti-technology; they were against changes in technology which increased rather than decreased disparities, inequality and unfairness in society.
This discussion is not about cash, it is about an outmoded method of credit card processing being used by American banks who need to be forced to sort their house out. So I would say not really relevant.
The fact that 90% of passengers can cope easily with something doesn't mean that other options should be abandoned. Maybe the 10% who would have difficulty, or might even not be able to use trains at all, should be catered for as a matter of course when the want to access a public service? After all, they're likely to be amongst the most disadvantaged in society already, without telling them they have to live without being able to travel...
We aren’t talking about ‘foreign’ cards in their home country though, we are talking about ‘foreign’ cards in the UK. My point was about Australian cards in the UK.
That timeline seems to fit in with what I said. My wife (an Australian citizen) got her first card with pin usage (and possibly a chip too) in about 2015/16. But regardless of what works over there, using that card over here was sometimes chip and sign, sometimes swipe and sign and never an issue. She did get one with contactless later on (I believe it had been available for longer). That would sometimes work without issue but as with all contactless cards, it would occasionally ask for the card to be entered, which became chip and sign and at least once would only accept a swipe and sign.
I know. Justing correcting your information. She should have had a chip card earlier than 2015 otherwise she could not have used it in Australia.
Regarding using Australian cards in UK, my chip and pin card was accepted throughout the UK in 2018 except at London Transport ticket machines at Heathrow 1-2-3 when I had to use a specific card that validates PIN on the card, not like other cards that validate PIN at the issuer.
My understanding is that problem has been resolved.
Regarding using Australian cards in UK, my chip and pin card was accepted throughout the UK in 2018 except at London Transport ticket machines at Heathrow 1-2-3 when I had to use a specific card that validates PIN on the card, not like other cards that validate PIN at the issuer.
UK Chip and PIN always validates the PIN with the card, not the issuer. This is more secure because the PIN is never transmitted (unless changing it) - effectively the machine just directly asks the card "is the PIN NNNN" and the card goes "yes" or "no", and on the third "no" becomes blocked.
It puzzles me that the attitude to there being such a small number of these types of transactions is "abolish them, say no, tough luck they'll have to find another way". This is the type of attitude our foreign visitors will see and remember from trying to use the laughing stock that is the UK railway. We really do deserve all the negative press we get around the world for this type of thing. If 1 in 100000 transactions requires someone, a visitor to our country, paying money into our economy to write a squiggle on a bit of paper in order to pay comparatively astronomical amounts to be let down and delayed on our railway then i think we should probably see our way to accommodating their needs.
Public Transport is to cater for the majority, the mainstream - and a substantial majority at that. However, it is not there to pander to individual tastes and hang ups. In much the same way as Telegrams, Public Call boxes, postal orders, cheques, trains to Yelvertoft & Stanford Park, cash on London buses etc have disappeared, even though, no doubt, there were some people using these facilities and some of those having concerns about using their replacements. The country has not ground to a standstill, and there haven't been widespread social problems as a result, even if it has upset some individuals.
It is all very well suggesting that our railway must train up and refresh staff for every possible payment scenario for the tiny number of transactions that this will involve - all this training and refreshing and dealing with the fraud costs time and money. We have a stupidly complicated fares system as it is (and massive resistance on here to changing anything) without worrying about what a few US or Australian tourists may think of us - they don't exactly have a big railway system themselves and surely don't cater for every UK foible either.
I have cards from several Australian banks (though none based in South Australia) and they have all been Chip & PIN since at least 2012. They all worked with TfL contactless roughly from the time that was introduced.
We have a stupidly complicated fares system as it is (and massive resistance on here to changing anything) without worrying about what a few US or Australian tourists may think of us - they don't exactly have a big railway system themselves and surely don't cater for every UK foible either.
Quite. People really should stop worrying about what other countries think of us for very minor things like having a solid banking system with good anti-fraud measures.
Are people still moaning you can't pay in cash on the buses in London any more? No. Onwards!
I would sooner have an axe to grind with the system that lets people down than have an axe to grind with the people who are trying to pay money into the system that lets people down. I appreciate the hindrance passengers cause though.
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She certainly had a card without one until 2015/16 but I believe also had a credit card with a chip. Don’t think she ever used the PIN here in the UK though as I say. Chip and sign and sometimes swipe. And on the last card she had issued over there, contactless.
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