Island Line Railway - current state and the future

[hwl]

Hopefully battery EMUs, charged with short lengths of third rail at a couple of stations plus overnight. But then wouldn't that be a 3xx or 5xx, being strict?

Hopefully just EMUs

 

[K.o.R]

Hopefully just EMUs

Hopefully. To me, if you're carrying your energy source around with you then you're doing it wrong.

 

[MarkyT]

Hopefully battery EMUs, charged with short lengths of third rail at a couple of stations plus overnight. But then wouldn't that be a 3xx or 5xx, being strict?

My preference would be to leave all, or at least most, of the third rail in place and use a modern traction package and a comparatively small battery to absorb braking energy and improve acceleration performance, overcoming any low voltage problems and to cover any local disconnection in case of maintenance and failure. It might be possible to remove 3rd rail from certain sections if they are troublesome today such as in Ryde tunnel or on the pier. This would be discontinuous electrification of a similar form to that proposed for the core valleys metro in South Wales.

 

[birchesgreen]

Hopefully battery EMUs, charged with short lengths of third rail at a couple of stations plus overnight. But then wouldn't that be a 3xx or 5xx, being strict?

Judging by recent examples something completely random in the 7xxs

 

[jon0844]

Couldn't they take 230s with third rail operation today and the option to switch to battery power later? Likely when it becomes uneconomical to replace/renew the current infrastructure?

 

[swt_passenger]

In which mode? Anything but diesel...

It doesn’t say anything about modes, just refers to them as 230s. I really should have mentioned that...

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

Judging by recent examples something completely random in the 7xxs

Haha! Given they've no pantographs for AC traction, they should really be 4xx if they're third rail. Current TOPS doesn't seem to make allowances for battery traction; repurposing the 5xx range seems appropriate given how sparsely populated it is (the last two examples are retiring soon when the 777s come in!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Haha! Given they've no pantographs for AC traction, they should really be 4xx if they're third rail. Current TOPS doesn't seem to make allowances for battery traction; repurposing the 5xx range seems appropriate given how sparsely populated it is (the last two examples are retiring soon when the 777s come in!)

What was 4xx vs 5xx anyway? Was 4xx Southern Region third rail EMU and 5xx non-SR third rail EMU?

 

[swt_passenger]

What was 4xx vs 5xx anyway? Was 4xx Southern Region third rail EMU and 5xx non-SR third rail EMU?

Whatever it was originally the last few iterations of the group standard didn’t differentiate them anymore. It’s just shown as 400-599 = DC EMUs.

 

[birchesgreen]

Yes the Class 455 was originally going to 510. So applying logic the battery D-trains could be 530 perhaps. Though applying logic to TOPS class numbers is of course foolhardy

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It doesn’t say anything about modes, just refers to them as 230s. I really should have mentioned that...

There has been a few postings of a discussion nature in the dedicated Class 230 Vivarail thread recently which seems to make mention of certain reservations about that class from a driving union point of view.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whatever it was originally the last few iterations of the group standard didn’t differentiate them anymore. It’s just shown as 400-599 = DC EMUs.

And of course Southern has used 3xx for all their Electrostars, even those without a pantograph and transformer.

 

[hooverboy]

Couldn't they take 230s with third rail operation today and the option to switch to battery power later? Likely when it becomes uneconomical to replace/renew the current infrastructure?

As far as I know, the D stock is 750v Rated while 483's are 630v.

The electrical gear on the line needs replacing regardless, but it's a lot easier to get hold of 750v stock.
considering the stated battery range is supposed to be 40-60 miles,then 8 1/2 miles each way is not a problem with a 5 minute quick charge at each terminus(this will improve as battery capacity,technology and storage are coming on in leaps and bounds)

 

[jon0844]

As far as I know, the D stock is 750v Rated while 483's are 630v.

The electrical gear on the line needs replacing regardless, but it's a lot easier to get hold of 750v stock.
considering the stated battery range is supposed to be 40-60 miles,then 8 1/2 miles each way is not a problem with a 5 minute quick charge at each terminus(this will improve as battery capacity,technology and storage are coming on in leaps and bounds)

I'm all for battery power from day one but merely wondered if this could speed up the introduction Seems with the differing power requirements, probably not.

 

[nw1]

Judging by recent examples something completely random in the 7xxs

lol. Whatever was wrong with the old system?
They've wasted one heck of a load of class numbers. Sequential numbering of the AC EMUs seem to end with the 325 (the mail EMUs; though I don't think there was ever a 316 or a 324) and they then used up the 3xx much faster than they needed to. If they'd have kept them on sequential, we'd probably only be at something like 340 or 345 right now and probably have another 50 years before we reached 399.

Now they're making the same mistake with the 7xx. Started ok with the 700 as the first example, now they're making a hash of it again.
Why not just do 700, 701, 702 etc in sequential order - or have a logical pattern like the Southern used to do with the 4xx ? e.g. 70x Desiro derivatives, 71x Electrostar derivatives, etc.

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

And of course Southern has used 3xx for all their Electrostars, even those without a pantograph and transformer.

They don't have a pantograph but were designed to have them and it could be added on with pretty much no internal changes to the train - is the reason they're 3xx, though. It's just an optional component.

 

[Chris999999]

They don't have a pantograph but were designed to have them and it could be added on with pretty much no internal changes to the train - is the reason they're 3xx, though. It's just an optional component.

I can't see the Island Line needing pantographs anytime soon.

 

[K.o.R]

I can't see the Island Line needing pantographs anytime soon.

Well, unless they about-face and tram it after all.

 

[sprinterguy]

In which mode? Anything but diesel...

Based on the first criteria of South West Railway's preferred proposal listed towards the bottom of this linked article, if this is true then I assume they'll be watching the upcoming trial of the class 230 battery prototype at Bo'ness with interest:

https://www.londonreconnections.com/2018/third-ryde-tube-transfer-troublesome/

• A ‘self-powered’ – but not diesel – train, accommodated on the existing infrastructure.
• A 25-year lease to help spread costs.
• An enhanced service frequency to better connect with the hovercraft and catamaran ferries [presumably an even (30-minute) headway though this was not explicitly stated].
• Infrastructure improvements to allow better interchange between Island Line and the Isle of Wight Steam Railway to generate revenue for both organisations.
• Better marketing and revenue protection.

 

[whhistle]

They don't have a pantograph but were designed to have them and it could be added on with pretty much no internal changes to the train - is the reason they're 3xx, though. It's just an optional component.

I wonder if this will be a dying trade.
The 377s are likely to live out their days on 3rd rail land making the pantograph well pointless. Although good for "just in case" but in hindsight...

 

[hwl]

I wonder if this will be a dying trade.
The 377s are likely to live out their days on 3rd rail land making the pantograph well pointless. Although good for "just in case" but in hindsight...

Probably a good choice for the 707s though...

 

[swt_passenger]

As far as I know, the D stock is 750v Rated while 483's are 630v.

The voltages quoted for DC third rail systems are only nominal values and cover quite a wide range. Most of the suburban area was only 660v until quite recently, but it was still generally referred to as part of the overall ‘750v network’.
I don’t believe it is significant that D stock and 483 stock are sometimes described as operating on slightly different voltages.

 

[birchesgreen]

I wonder if this will be a dying trade.
The 377s are likely to live out their days on 3rd rail land making the pantograph well pointless. Although good for "just in case" but in hindsight...

Well apart from the ones which go up to MKC of course.

 

[whhistle]

Well apart from the ones which go up to MKC of course.

Obviously.
Thinking about those units that have the pandograph well but no pantograph...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Obviously.
Thinking about those units that have the pandograph well but no pantograph...

Having the well on all of them may well (!) have made it cheaper, as it means all the units have the same body variants.

 

[Dougal2345]

Having the well on all of them may well (!) have made it cheaper, as it means all the units have the same body variants.

I always think those pantograph wells look untidy. A fibreglass cover would improve the aesthetics and would probably pay for itself by reducing aerodynamic drag.

 

[nlogax]

I always think those pantograph wells look untidy. A fibreglass cover would improve the aesthetics and would probably pay for itself by reducing aerodynamic drag.

Do they get beyond 90mph? Is drag even that much of an issue?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do they get beyond 90mph? Is drag even that much of an issue?

I doubt it, otherwise they'd have inter-vehicle fairings and pointy noses.

 

[Dougal2345]

I doubt it, otherwise they'd have inter-vehicle fairings and pointy noses.

But a well-cover is probably a lot cheaper and would cause much less inconvenience than those things. And even if the extra air turbulence caused by the well is minimal, over 20 or 30+ years of operation it must mount up to some extent... well, it was just a thought - I like the trains I ride on to look stylish, even if I don't

 

[reddragon]

Maybe a BPGV railway solution could work? Chop off & lower the roof on a class 456!