Island Line Railway - current state and the future

[yorksrob]

It's doubtful that modern stock with it's complicated electronics would last anywhere near as long, the chips would burn out and the software rendered obsolete well before the mechanicals wore out!

The 73 stock is the last chance for the IoW to get "mechanical" stock!

In that case, they'd better put their order in for it now.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

West Wight is a nightmare to access by bus though. Try landing at Ryde and visiting The Needles, two buses via Newport and getting on for two hours each way. It's barely possible as a day trip for those arriving on two thirds of the island's foot passenger routes, and yet it's one of the main visitor attractions. It isn't much easier for the other third landing at Cowes, either. Vectis is good, but it has limitations, one of which being that it's slow. Plenty of tourists arrive at Ryde and make their way to Sandown and Shanklin for their hotels, or for a seaside day trip somewhere other than Ryde. The railway is perfect for that flow, I struggle to imagine why anyone would choose to use the bus instead. Especially hotel guests with a weekend's luggage. There are certainly plenty of difficult questions about Island Line, but I'm not at all convinced that Vectis is a suitable replacement in the holiday season.

When we visited the IoW when we went between Yarmouth and Ryde, I think the traffic on the roads was worse heading west-bound along the road that leads to Newport (from Ryde - the one bit of dual carriage way on the whole island). iirc the bus route that goes between Newport and Ryde was acually "two routes", each going a different way, think the one via Wooton might possibly have been slower.

Assuming that it was possible to route a tram to avoid the tunnel, would the railway part of the pier be able to support the weight of a typical modern tram?

 

[yorksrob]

When we visited the IoW when we went between Yarmouth and Ryde, I think the traffic on the roads was worse heading west-bound along the road that leads to Newport (from Ryde - the one bit of dual carriage way on the whole island). iirc the bus route that goes between Newport and Ryde was acually "two routes", each going a different way, think the one via Wooton might possibly have been slower.

Assuming that it was possible to route a tram to avoid the tunnel, would the railway part of the pier be able to support the weight of a typical modern tram?

Perhaps the traffic was worse on that route due to the lack of a non-road based alternative.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Assuming that it was possible to route a tram to avoid the tunnel, would the railway part of the pier be able to support the weight of a typical modern tram?

I assume so, trams are generally quite light.

 

[bb21]

Perhaps the traffic was worse on that route due to the lack of a non-road based alternative.

If your argument stood, then surely the same should apply in the opposite direction, which is not what was said in your quotation.

 

[MarkyT]

This argument also works against all forms of transport and everything except day returns, I went to work 15 days this month when I only expected to do 13 so a monthly would have been cheaper, I feel ripped off???????????? Or I bought a return and then my mum phoned and asked me to join her for lunch so a rover would have been cheaper, unless your point is thatonly singles should be sold in order to level the playingfield and ensure no one feels ripped off I cannot see your point?

My specific point is that, in Torbay at least, singles are priced high, there are no return fares on offer since last year and there isn't a smaller area dayrider for say £3.50 for the bay towns alone rather than the broader Torbay area ticket (there is one of these just for the Newton Abbot town area but not an equivalent for Torquay/Paignton). My general point is that a PAYG card with a daily cap could avoid the rip off feeling even if not making individual single journeys any cheaper. I'll stop now as I'm getting a little OT wrt the Isle of Wight.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It was a while ago, but in the mid 2000s the buses in Kuala Lumpur only sold day tickets, no singles or returns.

 

[A0]

When we visited the IoW when we went between Yarmouth and Ryde, I think the traffic on the roads was worse heading west-bound along the road that leads to Newport (from Ryde - the one bit of dual carriage way on the whole island). iirc the bus route that goes between Newport and Ryde was acually "two routes", each going a different way, think the one via Wooton might possibly have been slower.

Assuming that it was possible to route a tram to avoid the tunnel, would the railway part of the pier be able to support the weight of a typical modern tram?

I'm not sure a tram would need to avoid the tunnel either - bearing in mind they were looking at the ex Merseyside 503s to replace the original tube stock because of the car lengths, the height, whilst an issue, is less of an issue.

Looking at the M5000s or Flexity 2s (Manchester and Blackpool respectively) the overall length is less than a 2 car 503 would have been and they are shorter and narrower.

The existing power supply of 750v DC could presumably be reused to power a 750v OHL ? And the clearances needed for that are much less than they are for mainline 25kv.

A tram conversion may be the most viable solution.

 

[bb21]

Plenty of tourists arrive at Ryde and make their way to Sandown and Shanklin for their hotels, or for a seaside day trip somewhere other than Ryde. The railway is perfect for that flow, I struggle to imagine why anyone would choose to use the bus instead. Especially hotel guests with a weekend's luggage. There are certainly plenty of difficult questions about Island Line, but I'm not at all convinced that Vectis is a suitable replacement in the holiday season.

For all the things Island Line are good at, this is one of the poorer functions it performs. With stacks of luggage in tow going from Ryde to Sandown, the last thing I would want to do is to drag them another ten minutes down the road from the station to my seafront hotel. Plenty of people for that reason choose the route from Pier Head to Esplanade on the train (partly because it is effectively free), and head for the frequent bus service which takes slightly longer but drops off in the heart of town.

Shanklin fares slightly better in that respect, as the differential in journey times is higher and the bus does not serve the seafront so offers less convenience.

Southern Vectis also offer a very attractive group ticket for up to five people going together.

Crap, inflexible service using antiquated rolling stock thus haemorrhaging passengers? Modern shiny buses seen as the future?

Good job that this forum wasn't around in the '60s, most of the posters would be cheering Beeching's axe......

What has this all got to do with Beeching, or is that your standard argument when realistic proposals about other modes of transport are supported?

I think they are also a bit odd with fares - I think they don't issue return tickets? And single tickets are not cheap so in practice if you are doing a return trip it is often cheaper to buy one of the day explorer tickets.

They are "a bit odd with fares" actually in favour of the passenger compared to most other operators. Single journeys cap at £4.50 on Southern Vectis, with through fare from anywhere to anywhere else on the island, even if a change of bus is required.

The adult day ticket is £15, so two singles are very much cheaper than the day ticket in the case of Southern Vectis.

 

[A0]

Perhaps the traffic was worse on that route due to the lack of a non-road based alternative.

It's also the road where the Portsmouth ferry arrives onto (which is the busiest of the Island's ferries) so sees far more traffic than other roads on the island. Reinstating the railway would make precisely no difference to that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I didn't know singles were (a) that cheap and (b) through fares.

I guess with that being the case, the high day ticket price (actually £10 for 24 hours, which for a one night trip is effectively 2 days, £15 is 48hrs for weekend trippers) reflects the fact that tourists will most likely buy one then ride round the island all day, rather than the use-case for day tickets in less touristy areas around the UK which is basically to make a (possibly connectional) return journey and possibly another marginal one later on, though mostly not.

 

[dcsprior]

They are "a bit odd with fares" actually in favour of the passenger compared to most other operators. Single journeys cap at £4.50 on Southern Vectis, with through fare from anywhere to anywhere else on the island, even if a change of bus is required.

The adult day ticket is £15, so two singles are very much cheaper than the day ticket in the case of Southern Vectis.

The Isle of Wight is about the same size as the area covered by Lothian Buses, which charges £1.60 per bus (so effectively no more than £3.20 for any one-way journey) or £4.00 for a day ticket, so the IoW prices whilst not extortionate are by no means very cheap.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Single £9.50
Return £8.00
Dayrider (for all of the south Lakes) £8.00

Why is the first of those (or indeed the second) ever sold? That's like the £1000 XC fare that has probably never been sold either.

It is generally to do with ENCP holders fares (free passes) the fare the bus company gets is the average single fare. So keeping the single high is a nice little earner for the free pass tickets

 

[yorksrob]

If your argument stood, then surely the same should apply in the opposite direction, which is not what was said in your quotation.

I think there's an argument that without the Island line, traffic on the Ryde - Shanklin axis would get worse, but congestion would increase and economic activity would be constrained as a result.

I don't think I've said anything in previous posts to contradict this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is generally to do with ENCP holders fares (free passes) the fare the bus company gets is the average single fare. So keeping the single high is a nice little earner for the free pass tickets

If I was the Council paying I would be quite cross about the above example, it's near enough fraudulent. By all means set it to £8 but making it more expensive is out of order.

Mind you not everywhere reimburses on the single ticket price.

 

[Deafdoggie]

If I was the Council paying I would be quite cross about the above example, it's near enough fraudulent. By all means set it to £8 but making it more expensive is out of order.

Mind you not everywhere reimburses on the single ticket price.

It is a complex process, but generally it is the "average single ticket price" Returns and day tickets are considered, but with less weight. Group tickets are excluded, as is anything over a day. The bus companies therefore try to extract as much from ENCTS tickets as possible, whilst still offering value to cash payers. But it is partly why weekly tickets and family tickets often offer such good value, as it doesn't drag the average fare down

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It is a complex process, but generally it is the "average single ticket price" Returns and day tickets are considered, but with less weight. Group tickets are excluded, as is anything over a day. The bus companies therefore try to extract as much from ENCTS tickets as possible, whilst still offering value to cash payers. But it is partly why weekly tickets and family tickets often offer such good value, as it doesn't drag the average fare down

I would imagine there is also another motivation for buses: Outside 'smart card' areas like London, the actual process of people paying for their tickets on the bus can hold up the bus quite a bit. That must give bus companies quite an incentive to discourage use of tickets that only give you one journey, which might also account for high prices of singles relative to explorer-type tickets.

 

[joncombe]

deleted

 

[joncombe]

The Isle of Wight is about the same size as the area covered by Lothian Buses, which charges £1.60 per bus (so effectively no more than £3.20 for any one-way journey) or £4.00 for a day ticket, so the IoW prices whilst not extortionate are by no means very cheap.

Indeed, a journey from Ryde to Newport for instance is £4.50 single and so with no return fare available it means if this is the only journey you want to make, it's £9 return. I doubt the rail fare, if the line still existed, would be anything like so high.

The same applies on the Ryde to Shanklin route where the bus fare is £4.50 each way, so £9 return. By way of comparison, Island Line charges £4.50 for an any time day return between Ryde Esplande and Shanklin, so it's half the price of the bus.

 

[DerekC]

. Potentially a busway could work though especially if it was extended along the old track bed to Newport and Cowes. That could actually be cheaper than full renewal of the line and a tailored order of 3 units.

Not convinced by the busway cost argument - 16 miles of Cambridge guided busway mostly on former railway line cost £181M. But it might depend on what you have in mind. The Fareham to (nearly) Gosport "Eclipse" scheme cost about £20M for around 4 miles of what is in effect just a dual carriageway road dedicated to buses. I doubt that you would save much money compared with railway refurbishment on IoW, but what you might get is a flexible system which can run on conventional roads when not on the dedicated route, with cheap (compared with trains or trams) buses to run on it!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not convinced by the busway argument - 16 miles of Cambridge busway mostly on former railway line cost £181M.

I think a guided busway would be a bad idea, but a dedicated bus-only conventional road (like the Eclipse busway in Gosport or for that matter Runcorn) may well be a good idea.

 

[Chris125]

Plenty of people for that reason choose the route from Pier Head to Esplanade on the train (partly because it is effectively free), and head for the frequent bus service which takes slightly longer but drops off in the heart of town.

Really? As someone who lives along the line I don't recognise that at all.

While the occasional visitor may take their luggage on the bus to Sandown and Shanklin, it would be a tiny fraction of those taking the train - it's just not practical, especially for the older generation or family groups.

This surely makes sense - if you've got to Portsmouth by train and are heading to Sandown and Shanklin it would be odd not to have a through ticket and continue by train. In my experience services throughout the summer carry numerous pieces of luggage as well as prams, far more than you'd find on the bus.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Who doesn't have a trolley case these days, anyway? You walk further in airports than you do down the pier, and the view isn't nearly as good.

 

[DerekC]

This surely makes sense - if you've got to Portsmouth by train and are heading to Sandown and Shanklin it would be odd not to have a through ticket and continue by train. In my experience services throughout the summer carry numerous pieces of luggage as well as prams, far more than you'd find on the bus.

The through ticketing via a busway would be easy to fix. Luggage might be more of a problem but you could handle that too, on a well-designed bus. Modern trains aren't particularly good at luggage (certainly the Class 444s and 450s that SWR uses for the Portsmouth services aren't). Much as I would like to see a steel-wheel on steel-rail solution, it's hard to see the logic for it on IoW. I shouldn't be surprised to see DfT using it as a trial for a rural rail-to-bus conversion scheme.

 

[yorksrob]

The through ticketing via a busway would be easy to fix. Luggage might be more of a problem but you could handle that too, on a well-designed bus. Modern trains aren't particularly good at luggage (certainly the Class 444s and 450s that SWR uses for the Portsmouth services aren't). Much as I would like to see a steel-wheel on steel-rail solution, it's hard to see the logic for it on IoW. I shouldn't be surprised to see DfT using it as a trial for a rural rail-to-bus conversion scheme.

That's another aspect of the problem.

If they get away with it on the IoW, they'll want to resurrect that dreadful old ghoul of busway/road conversion schemes that we'd hoped Sir Peter Parker had seen off in the 1980's.

I also disagree with your point about luggage. Much as I dislike modern high density train layouts, there is a lot more space to stick a suitcase than on a bus.

 

[Stroud Valleys]

As a rough guess how many people who travel on the island line actually pay? There are no ticket barriers and the ticket inspector is limited to 1 carriage. Surely a significant number of people must try it on between the ryde stations. If this gap is significant and was subsquently closed, could it make a significant difference to potential revenues?

Furthermore is the island underpriced. Its half the price compared with a bus return so would islanders be willing to pay more for an enhanced customer experience?

 

[joncombe]

I also disagree with your point about luggage. Much as I dislike modern high density train layouts, there is a lot more space to stick a suitcase than on a bus.

Yes taking luggage on most buses in the UK is difficult. Some have a small luggage rack above the wheel arch at the front, but it is small. In some areas, like my local bus route, this has entirely been given over to copies of the "Metro" so the only place to put luggage is on the floor in the wheelchair space, where you have to hold on to it, to stop it moving about and if anyone in a wheelchair gets on, prepare to be asked to get off the bus!

 

[ainsworth74]

Its half the price compared with a bus return so would islanders be willing to pay more for an enhanced customer experience?

Even if you doubled the fares and therefore, simplistically at least, doubled the revenues it would still leave a massive amount of subsidy required.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes taking luggage on most buses in the UK is difficult. Some have a small luggage rack above the wheel arch at the front, but it is small. In some areas, like my local bus route, this has entirely been given over to copies of the "Metro" so the only place to put luggage is on the floor in the wheelchair space, where you have to hold on to it, to stop it moving about and if anyone in a wheelchair gets on, prepare to be asked to get off the bus!

I often struggle with my rucksack and a couple of carrier bags of shopping.

 

[Stroud Valleys]

Even if you doubled the fares and therefore, simplistically at least, doubled the revenues it would still leave a massive amount of subsidy required.

But what about non payment of fares - is that a major issue on the network?