Island Line Railway - current state and the future

[yorksrob]

A fair question , if some or all of the present subsidy to Island Line (per mile , quite high one gathers) - and invested in a much enhanced and presumably cheaper bus service , would the overall Island economy benefit. ? - maybe some extra road investment steered away from the notional £50M investment in "status quo"....the present rail link does not seem to be improving a challenged local economy , and apart from the small pilgrimage of 1938 TS afficionados , (yes - I have been there for this reason) , would there be a Benthamite solution.

With bus deregulation, would the local authority have a way of enforcing cheaper bus fares anyway, however much money you threw at them.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

For me, no. I'm generally healthy, but I can't see myself cycling those sort of distances as a matter of course, and I suspect the majority are the same.

For buses, if they won't connect with the existing railway, I don't see why they would suddenly divert down it as a busway. A better option would be to enable the local authority to specify existing bus services connect with the train and enforce a policy of intermodal ticketing (but the free market brigade would probably have palpitations at such an idea).

Well, the way would be by far the most direct means between Ryde and the Sandown-Shanklin conurbation, which would allow for fast, attractive and reliable bus times, and given a bus's infinitely quicker ability to brake, uplift / set down custom and accelerate again, a by far better means of attracting intermediate custom to those settlements too. It would also allow for other through journey opportunities too, such as faster links between Ventnor (where buses actually get into the town centre and seafront, not a mile away and with a descent the size of Everest like the old railway station greeted people with) and Ryde, and on the existing route 2 / 3 for trips between Newport and Sandown / Shanklin.

Some form of integrated ticketing would probably help tide the Island line over in the mean time (though there is of course no incentive whatsoever for SV to offer it), however that doesn't remove the gargantuan elephant in the room that is how utterly shot at the railway line is. The rolling stock, as wonderful as the nostalgia is, is a complete embarrassment, and the infrastructure upon which it runs are in little better state. Couple that with two structures bookending the main settlement on the line (Ryde Tunnel and Pier) which royally screw any traditional solutions and you have a problem which will not be solved simply by throwing scores of money at it and repeating 'vital social necessity' in the hope that the railway gods take pity on it.

Like many other areas on the British rail network in the past, the perpetual lack of decisive, modern solutions will do nothing except deeper entrench its problems. As much as I love both railways and the Isle of Wight, I just do not see where how the existing Island line resolves itself of these problems in its current form.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With bus deregulation, would the local authority have a way of enforcing cheaper bus fares anyway, however much money you threw at them.

Could the Council pursue quality contracts? Mind you, Vectis is excellent, as I said unrivalled in quality and coverage for a rural operation, pratting about with it would be ill advised.

 

[bb21]

The Lymington branch has been downgraded to 2-carriage diesel operation in recent years and Matlock lost its Birmingham service when EMT took over the ex-CT routes in the area... Hardly stellar performance from this forum's favourite Scottish bus company.

Why on earth would Lymington need anything more than one coach?

On Matlock, you are very conveniently leaving out all the service improvements since EMT took over, now linking the branch to Nottingham and Newark, among other things. The loss of the direct link to Birmingham can be quite fairly attributed to the way franchise maps were drawn up when Central were broken up.

I can't quite believe that you are giving these as examples of a poor show.

 

[yorksrob]

Well, the way would be by far the most direct means between Ryde and the Sandown-Shanklin conurbation, which would allow for fast, attractive and reliable bus times, and given a bus's infinitely quicker ability to brake, uplift / set down custom and accelerate again, a by far better means of attracting intermediate custom to those settlements too. It would also allow for other through journey opportunities too, such as faster links between Ventnor (where buses actually get into the town centre and seafront, not a mile away and with a descent the size of Everest like the old railway station greeted people with) and Ryde, and on the existing route 2 / 3 for trips between Newport and Sandown / Shanklin.

Some form of integrated ticketing would probably help tide the Island line over in the mean time (though there is of course no incentive whatsoever for SV to offer it), however that doesn't remove the gargantuan elephant in the room that is how utterly shot at the railway line is. The rolling stock, as wonderful as the nostalgia is, is a complete embarrassment, and the infrastructure upon which it runs are in little better state. Couple that with two structures bookending the main settlement on the line (Ryde Tunnel and Pier) which royally screw any traditional solutions and you have a problem which will not be solved simply by throwing scores of money at it and repeating 'vital social necessity' in the hope that the railway gods take pity on it.

Like many other areas on the British rail network in the past, the perpetual lack of decisive, modern solutions will do nothing except deeper entrench its problems. As much as I love both railways and the Isle of Wight, I just do not see where how the existing Island line resolves itself of these problems in its current form.

Having the island without any rail transport and reliant on buses would be an even bigger embarrassment and would entrench the areas second rate status.

 

[yorksrob]

Could the Council pursue quality contracts? Mind you, Vectis is excellent, as I said unrivalled in quality and coverage for a rural operation, pratting about with it would be ill advised.

Wasn't that abandoned in Newcastle as soon as the vested interests started to squeal ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having the island without any rail transport and reliant on buses would be an even bigger embarrassment and would entrench the areas second rate status.

Have you used the buses?

 

[bb21]

Having the island without any rail transport and reliant on buses would be an even bigger embarrassment and would entrench the areas second rate status.

Sorry Rob but that is a ridiculous assertion.

A quality bus service can do wonders. Have a look at Nottingham.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Well, the way would be by far the most direct means between Ryde and the Sandown-Shanklin conurbation, which would allow for fast, attractive and reliable bus times, and given a bus's infinitely quicker ability to brake, uplift / set down custom and accelerate again, a by far better means of attracting intermediate custom to those settlements too. It would also allow for other through journey opportunities too, such as faster links between Ventnor (where buses actually get into the town centre and seafront, not a mile away and with a descent the size of Everest like the old railway station greeted people with) and Ryde, and on the existing route 2 / 3 for trips between Newport and Sandown / Shanklin.

Some form of integrated ticketing would probably help tide the Island line over in the mean time (though there is of course no incentive whatsoever for SV to offer it), however that doesn't remove the gargantuan elephant in the room that is how utterly shot at the railway line is. The rolling stock, as wonderful as the nostalgia is, is a complete embarrassment, and the infrastructure upon which it runs are in little better state. Couple that with two structures bookending the main settlement on the line (Ryde Tunnel and Pier) which royally screw any traditional solutions and you have a problem which will not be solved simply by throwing scores of money at it and repeating 'vital social necessity' in the hope that the railway gods take pity on it.

Like many other areas on the British rail network in the past, the perpetual lack of decisive, modern solutions will do nothing except deeper entrench its problems. As much as I love both railways and the Isle of Wight, I just do not see where how the existing Island line resolves itself of these problems in its current form.

Tremendous post , and the hard facts of a "totally shot" railway (which, fair play has done a good job over the years) is maybe no reason to throw more money into a sink hole - beach shingle as ballast and probably unstable embankments , a Victorian built pier etc .....trains built when Chamberlain (good man and underestimated) was going to Munich - but at least he bought us time)

In between all this , I have done dinner for 4 and chased around the domestics for the workers at home , but Googled the IoW economy - wages might be lower , population has increased by about 20k , but the biggest employer is manufactering - the tourist trade appears to be much changed from the old tradition to day trips and short breaks (think Bestival etc) - the strategy plans call for "improved public transport" in a smarter economy for the economically active. (only about 2.5% unemployed) , better training and more high tech stuff. So not all bad , and how a stub end railway contribute to the vision is indeed an interesting question. Mandated quality bus contracts (and lots of "soft" improvements in (heated and safe) waiting areas , security , Wifi etc etc ....could be a bit more appealing to the general populace than LPTB rolling stock of the pre-war period or impossible to afford new build bespoke mini - trains.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Have you used the buses?

Yes - several times - better than round here in Herts and about the same price !

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Having the island without any rail transport and reliant on buses would be an even bigger embarrassment and would entrench the areas second rate status.

Given the frankly horrendous state of the existing railway line, and few (if any) viable and realistic options to change that, I would disagree. The way to stave of the 'second rate status' is to have accessible, modern and efficient transport no matter what form it manifests itself in. The Island line fails miserably at that. West Wight for example is not some decrepit embarrassing hovel for not having a train run anywhere near it - its exceptionally good bus system speaks for itself.

 

[yorksrob]

All well and lovely, but the solution is relatively straightforward. Obtain some second hand rail from the mainline, tack on a rolling stock order to the next underground order, integrate the route with the rest of the South West and merge the franchise with the South Western one (eventually).

None of this is particularly outlandish or revolutionary. A stub the line may be, but it still links the larger settlements.

 

[yorksrob]

Tremendous post , and the hard facts of a "totally shot" railway (which, fair play has done a good job over the years) is maybe no reason to throw more money into a sink hole - beach shingle as ballast and probably unstable embankments , a Victorian built pier etc .....trains built when Chamberlain (good man and underestimated) was going to Munich - but at least he bought us time)

In between all this , I have done dinner for 4 and chased around the domestics for the workers at home , but Googled the IoW economy - wages might be lower , population has increased by about 20k , but the biggest employer is manufactering - the tourist trade appears to be much changed from the old tradition to day trips and short breaks (think Bestival etc) - the strategy plans call for "improved public transport" in a smarter economy for the economically active. (only about 2.5% unemployed) , better training and more high tech stuff. So not all bad , and how a stub end railway contribute to the vision is indeed an interesting question. Mandated quality bus contracts (and lots of "soft" improvements in (heated and safe) waiting areas , security , Wifi etc etc ....could be a bit more appealing to the general populace than LPTB rolling stock of the pre-war period or impossible to afford new build bespoke mini - trains.

I'm afraid I don't really understand how renewing operational infrastructure, long after it is due for renewal is somehow 'throwing money down a sink hole'. Surely infrastructure renewal is part and parcel of any transport network. By your definition, replacing life expired track on the ECML could also be described as such.

When calculating the inevitable cost benefit ratio for renewing infrastructure on the island, I wonder if the mandarins will take account of the fact that it tends to last a lot longer on the island. If infrastructure is routinely made to last twice as long as on the mainland, it will cost in real terms half as much (or generate twice the benefit) but I suspect that those running the country haven't noticed that.

And what are these 'bespoke' trains you speak of ? They are standard tube trains used in the largest metro system in the world. There is nothing remotely bespoke about them. An order can and should be tacked on the next LU order, only these can last seventy years on the island from scratch, which should again improve the benefit - cost ratio.

 

[yorksrob]

Given the frankly horrendous state of the existing railway line, and few (if any) viable and realistic options to change that, I would disagree. The way to stave of the 'second rate status' is to have accessible, modern and efficient transport no matter what form it manifests itself in. The Island line fails miserably at that. West Wight for example is not some decrepit embarrassing hovel for not having a train run anywhere near it - its exceptionally good bus system speaks for itself.

Buses are a second rate transport system and anywhere relying in them will be left behind to an extent. Only now have I just crawled through Leeds on a bus, stopping every five minutes and taking ages. It wouldn't have mattered how modern and accessible that bus was - the experience would still have been like banging ones head against a wall. And I've still yet to hear in our deregulated system, by what mechanism this utopia of cheap bus fares is going to be mandated.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

That (a dedicated road, not a misguided busway) might not be an altogether terrible idea.

Hang on, is this still RailUKForums?
(Joking aside, it's hard to argue against closure versus continuing to patch up as best can be done until the pier falls into the sea).

 

[DenmarkRail]

Avoiding closure is easy... U55 Berlin stock, when they become available from 2019...

 

[yorksrob]

Sorry Rob but that is a ridiculous assertion.

A quality bus service can do wonders. Have a look at Nottingham.

Given that Nottingham is connected to the rail network, I don't regard it as a relevant comparison to a rail-less island.

 

[ooo]

Avoiding closure is easy... U55 Berlin stock, when they become available from 2019...

Would they definitely fit?

 

[DenmarkRail]

Would they definitely fit?

From the information I found on various different pages, yes, they would fit.

 

[Rational Plan]

The Island bus service is excellent, despite the cut backs. A few routes still operate at Midnight around the Island. It's possible to go for evening drinks and use the bus, in large parts of the Island. One day I was going to my sisters in the evening, while on holiday, and was stunned to realise that were runing an hourly service on Christmas Day!! The problem is the railway is only really handy for Sandown High School and Ryde Sea Front, it's semi useful for Shanklin. If it was not for surprisingly congested roads (they cancelled all the proposed bypasses in the 90's, as part of the Islands Nimby obsession) the bus would be fine for the Island.

But at the end of Day I'd like some commitment to the Islands infrastructure, whether new roads or improved rail line. If the line was modernised then it could at least offer half hourly service. In a true fantasy I'd convert it to tram, build a few more stops in residential areas, to increase patronage and build short extensions so you run services to Sandown sea front and further into Shanklin, thereby being more useful for tourists and residents.

 

[A0]

Buses are a second rate transport system and anywhere relying in them will be left behind to an extent. Only now have I just crawled through Leeds on a bus, stopping every five minutes and taking ages. It wouldn't have mattered how modern and accessible that bus was - the experience would still have been like banging ones head against a wall. And I've still yet to hear in our deregulated system, by what mechanism this utopia of cheap bus fares is going to be mandated.

That's not a reasonable comparison - the Isle of Wight (in total) has a population of 140,000 over an area of 145 square miles.

Leeds by comparison has a population nearly 800,000 over an area of 213 square miles.

You've got far more people trying to move about in Leeds and into / out of than you do on the Isle of Wight.

Having visited it many times over the years, you get a bit of traffic congestion in the height of summer. Go over there in the winter and the roads are pretty much deserted. Southern Vectis run a modern fleet of buses and are pretty good at keeping time.

Add in the main traffic flow isn't along the Ryde - Sandown - Shanklin corridor - at least not for the locals, most of whom are heading to / from Newport which is the main shopping destination.

A better comparison for the Isle of Wight would be somewhere like Jersey, Guernsey or Malta - all three of which are islands, all three have tourist 'peaks', none of them have a rail system, all of them run extensive bus networks. You could even use the Isle of Man, where the steam railway and the electric railway exist far more as tourist attractions - with the locals using the buses.

 

[Olaf]

A bleak local economy is all the more reason to retain the line. Infact, in some respects it increases the social need.

The locals seem to hardly use the service, and committing to potential future expenditure of upto GBP 50 Million on a service that is not in demand is irresponsible when the money could be better spent elsewhere.

 

[Olaf]

Unfortunately road development is generally no good for reducing road congestion. It leads to increased traffic. Providing an alternative is the only way to reduce it, particularly where you have substantial seasonal flows. The 'few' are tourists who are vital to the economy of the many.

More people on the Island suffer from road congestion than the potential absence of the railway; suggesting road improvements are non-beneficial is a fallacy and activist dogma. Wasting funds on the underused railway does not fix problems with congestion in Newport, or Cowes, or on any of the main roads.

 

[Olaf]

Does the 'socially deprived economy' hinge entirely on it being a railway line? If it could be converted to a green, modern and efficient separated way for cyclists and buses, would this not fulfill the same function?

I am not sure if buses could be cleared for the full route of the line, but conversion to a cycle track sounds like a potential base-line option.

 

[Olaf]

For me, no. I'm generally healthy, but I can't see myself cycling those sort of distances as a matter of course, and I suspect the majority are the same.

For buses, if they won't connect with the existing railway, I don't see why they would suddenly divert down it as a busway. A better option would be to enable the local authority to specify existing bus services connect with the train and enforce a policy of intermodal ticketing (but the free market brigade would probably have palpitations at such an idea).

Intermodal ticketing is no doubt an option as an extension of the new system they introduced, but when locals clearly dont't use the existing service they are not going to be encouraged to use the rail service unless it is improved and that is not going to happen without investment. So you are back to square one; finding justification for spending potentially up to GBP 50 Million vs all other demands for funding.

 

[Olaf]

With bus deregulation, would the local authority have a way of enforcing cheaper bus fares anyway, however much money you threw at them.

They manage fine as it is; ticket prices are reasonable for the level of service, and various discounts are on offer. In addition, the bus services general go where people want to travel, unlike the railway.

 

[yorksrob]

More people on the Island suffer from road congestion than the potential absence of the railway; suggesting road improvements are non-beneficial is a fallacy and activist dogma. Wasting funds on the underused railway does not fix problems with congestion in Newport, or Cowes, or on any of the main roads.

Spending money on HS2 doesn't fix congestion railway congestion problems on the Cardiff line, yet its proponents wouldn't suggest that that is a reason not to build it.

We are told that choice is a good thing. Those who say that we should spend all the budget on road building, rather than ensuring that the full range of transport links are maintained properly, are the dogmatic ones.

 

[Olaf]

Having the island without any rail transport and reliant on buses would be an even bigger embarrassment and would entrench the areas second rate status.

It is one that the majority of adult Islanders can live with, and I would doubt they would tolerate any mainlanders making such a jibe.

 

[Olaf]

Before they can but technical solutions together, then need to address the funding issues:

Island Line needs £40m over next four years
http://www.iwcp.co.uk/news/news/island-line-needs-40m-over-next-four-years-86442.aspx
- 2015-07-23
.

Does anyone know what was proposed to be covered by this GBP 40 Million figure?

 

[yorksrob]

The locals seem to hardly use the service, and committing to potential future expenditure of upto GBP 50 Million on a service that is not in demand is irresponsible when the money could be better spent elsewhere.

Somebody's obviously using the service. So, the railway relies more heavily than most on outsiders arriving from the mainland. That's absolutely no reason not to maintain it.

The only reason the railway will cost so much to bring back to standard is because renewals have been neglected. It's about time this was reversed, otherwise the 'powers that be' will have carte blanche to run down infrastructure to justify closing it down.