Is trainpal wrong?

[wearytraveller]

Hi team

I'm looking to travel from Preston Park to Winchester Saturday 8th November and back the next day. I have a network Railcard

Trainline is selling me a splitsave for £44.35, but Trainpal are suggesting £35.85, ostensibly not charging for the return. Clearly I'd prefer to pay the lower fare, but have they messed up?

 

[Watershed]

I'm not sure why Trainline are selling you a split ticket costing £44.35.

TrainPal are correctly offering you the £35.85 Off-Peak Return routed "not via London" (with a £1 discount they're paying for).

Your searches aren't quite identical as you've entered an exact return date & time for Trainline but "open return" on TrainPal. That could have something to do with it, though I can't see why the return journey would be invalid with the above-mentioned fare.

 

[wearytraveller]

I'm not sure why Trainline are selling you a split ticket costing £44.35.

TrainPal are correctly offering you the £35.85 Off-Peak Return routed "not via London" (with a £1 discount they're paying for).

Your searches aren't quite identical as you've entered an exact return date & time for Trainline but "open return" on TrainPal. That could have something to do with it, though I can't see why the return journey would be invalid with the above-mentioned fare.

Thanks for this. I don't seem to be able to get any site other than trainpal to offer the £35.85 fare. But if you're certain this is an off-peak return valid to come home on Sunday, not a same day return, then I'll buy from them.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

I'm not sure why Trainline are selling you a split ticket costing £44.35.

I think the Not London fare fails the historic fare check at the Winchester end (£16.80 > £14.60). Apologies to anyone that makes absolutely no sense for, but it's part of the "Routeing Guide" check that determines whether the journey taken is OK for one ticket. Having said that, anyone on the train would think it a reasonable route

 

[wearytraveller]

Where is the £16.80 coming from?

 

[Kite159]

I think the Not London fare fails the historic fare check at the Winchester end (£16.80 > £14.60). Apologies to anyone that makes absolutely no sense for, but it's part of the "Routeing Guide" check that determines whether the journey taken is OK for one ticket. Having said that, anyone on the train would think it a reasonable route

Agreed there, Winchester - Clapham Junction (even with a change at Woking) - Preston Park is quite reasonable on a 'not via London' ticket.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

Where is the £16.80 coming from?

This fare check involves comparing fares from 1996, at the time of privatisation, as a way of encoding into data what was considered reasonable at the time I suppose. The £16.80 is the fare (I'm keeping it vague because it varies, but in this case we're comparing two singles) from Preston Park to Winchester and the £14.60 is the comparable fare from Preston Park to Basingstoke, which is the location used to check fares to Winchester in this case

You can try it here

 

[wearytraveller]

This fare check involves comparing fares from 1996, at the time of privatisation, as a way of encoding into data what was considered reasonable at the time I suppose. The £16.80 is the fare (I'm keeping it vague because it varies, but in this case we're comparing two singles) from Preston Park to Winchester and the £14.60 is the comparable fare from Preston Park to Basingstoke, which is the location used to check fares to Winchester in this case

You can try it here

Wow. Gotta love UK railways.

So long story short, the £35.85 fare is valid for next day, and in fact open return, as long as I change at Clapham jn?

 

[Watershed]

I think the Not London fare fails the historic fare check at the Winchester end (£16.80 > £14.60). Apologies to anyone that makes absolutely no sense for, but it's part of the "Routeing Guide" check that determines whether the journey taken is OK for one ticket. Having said that, anyone on the train would think it a reasonable route

The "not via London" fare fails the fares check if you use Brighton Routeing Point Group as the origin and Basingstoke as the destination.

However, it passes the fares check if you use Wivelsfield as the origin instead (and continue with Basingstoke as the destination RP).

Therefore I don't see why it wouldn't be permitted.

Wow. Gotta love UK railways.

So long story short, the £35.85 fare is valid for next day, and in fact open return, as long as I change at Clapham jn?

Yes, it is.

 

[wearytraveller]

The "not via London" fare fails the fares check if you use Brighton Routeing Point Group as the origin and Basingstoke as the destination.

However, it passes the fares check if you use Wivelsfield as the origin instead (and continue with Basingstoke as the destination RP).

Therefore I don't see why it wouldn't be permitted.

Sorry, I'm not following. I'm coming from Preston Park, not Brighton or Wivelsfield, and going to Winchester not Basingstoke, so I don't understand why those things are relevant.

But I'll buy the £35.85 ticket because why not.

 

[alistairlees]

These stations (and the fares between them) are used to calculate the valid routes for your ticket from Preston Park. The important point is that you as a customer should be able to find out (without needing any knowledge) what tickets are available, what routes they are valid via, and at what times. This is often fiendishly complex. The other posters are effectively sharing their workings in establishing this.

 

[wearytraveller]

These stations (and the fares between them) are used to calculate the valid routes for your ticket from Preston Park. The important point is that you as a customer should be able to find out (without needing any knowledge) what tickets are available, what routes they are valid via, and at what times. This is often fiendishly complex. The other posters are effectively sharing their workings in establishing this.

I truly appreciate all the knowledge here, but I bet most of the rpos couldn't tell you the rules, let alone customers understand them.
Why won't Trainline or others sell me this £35 fare? The official national rail site won't offer any tickets other than a £57 off peak standard

 

[redreni]

Why won't Trainline or others sell me this £35 fare? The official national rail site won't offer any tickets other than a £57 off peak standard

You would need to ask them, but ultimately you only need one accredited retailer to offer you the fare and you can buy it, stick to the route they've given you (and comply with any time-based restrictions on the ticket - there are none on Saturdays or Sundays), and that's it.

There's no obligation to go digging around checking if an accredited retailer has made a mistake - if they have, that's their fault not yours.

It seems likely in this case the other retailers aren't finding this fare when they should, rather than TrainPal finding it when they shouldn't. It's probably because, depending which routeing points you choose and how you perform the fares check, it can fail the fares check as other posters have noted.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Fujitsu Journey Planner also says the "not via London" tickets aren't valid to change at Clapham Junction due to Basingstoke failing the fares check.

The only route it gives as valid for such tickets is via the West Coastway, which has Engineering Work that weekend, with buses between Brighton and Littlehampton.

I'd suggest that SWR (as the fare setter) need to request a Routeing Guide easement to override the fares check if they intend such tickets to be valid via Clapham Junction.

 

[jfollows]

I don’t think the routeing guide is at fault here; as @Watershed explains above, using Wivelsfield as a routeing point generates a valid route via Clapham Junction which passes the fares check. Unless there’s a “negative easement” which I and the routeing point calculator have missed.
Maps LB + LE give a route via Clapham Junction.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

The origin and destination routeing points are independent, I still think that if you pick the route as Not London rather than Any Permitted, Basingstoke is ruled-out

 

[jfollows]

The origin and destination routeing points are independent, I still think that if you pick the route as Not London rather than Any Permitted, Basingstoke is ruled-out

Yes, I’m missing something or something’s wrong, the routeing guide calculator gave the above for route
CLAPHM J NOT LDN [00602]

Maybe because the ticket is
00700 NOT VIA LONDON
which isn’t the same.

If I put 00700 into the routeing point calculator it disallows via Basingstoke indeed, but now allows via Eastleigh also.

 

[Mike99]

Apologies if I'm wrong, but I put into the forum ticket section, clicking on open return leaving Sat 1st November with a 26-30 railcard and 1 change, I was offered a off peak return priced at £35.85 not via London

 

[MrJeeves]

Apologies if I'm wrong, but I put into the forum ticket section, clicking on open return leaving Sat 1st November with a 26-30 railcard and 1 change, I was offered a off peak return priced at £35.85 not via London

There is seemingly a separate issue preventing the sale of the ticket via the forum's site, which has been raised with our supplier.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

If I put 00700 into the routeing point calculator it disallows via Basingstoke indeed, but now allows via Eastleigh also.

Yes, odd that you are allowed to go further! They need an easement for this, really

 

[Bank Foot AM]

So, the answer to the question is yes. TrainPal is wrong because Basingstoke is not allowed, albeit due to the NFM64 fares. FJP, NRE, TrainSplit, Trainline et al. correctly implement the routing guide and quote the Any Permitted fare for this journey.

Does it matter? Not to the OP because the retailer will have provided an itinerary with the ticket and, in reality, no-one's going to notice anyway. However, it does mean that TrainPal has gained a financial advantage over its competitors by (inadvertantly, I'm sure) selling a lower priced ticket than everyone else. Supplying an itinerary magically makes it valid and that concept will soon be enshrined in the NRCoT.

 

[redreni]

To be honest, in my personal opinion (not consumer advice), TrainPal making an error in my favour is one of the only things likely to make me buy a ticket from them. If that gets them into hot water with RDG, I don't care, particularly.

 

[Crithylum]

I've checked myself, and the "any permitted" fare is not valid via Eastleigh, only Basingstoke, whereas the "not London" is the other way round. Even crazier, and Eastleigh to Preston Park ticket is valid either via London and Basingstoke (on any permitted), Clapham Junction (Claphm J not Ldn), and there is another fare via Barnham. Definitely not confusing (sarcasm).

 

[MrJeeves]

It's not the only bit of fares and routeing insanity in this area, either.

Things are even worse further up the line, with tickets from Hassocks - Gatwick Airport inclusive (and I think even as far as around Salfords/Earlswood, where the shortest+3mi route includes via Guildford?) to stations in and around Portsmouth having both fares set with routes NOT VIA LONDON and VIA BARNHAM, but both routes have identical validity because the maps don't permit travel any other way than via Barnham.

Below are the map combinations for Wivelsfield - Portsmouth Group, for example:



And the fares priced to reflect, I assume, travel via Clapham Junction or maybe via Redhill-Guildford.