Is this Southeastern's new "strategy" for dealing with fare dodgers?

[trentside]

Personally I would like all our trains to be fitted with ejector seats so the fare dodgers can be catapulted off the train at about 100mph.

Only if we can have a trap door at the station as well, so that if they escape the ejector seat we have a back-up

I've got to agree with the other staff on here that there's very little to be done, and it just becomes a cake-walk for those out to not pay their fares. There's no back up from management or the BTP, and is it really worth getting a punch in the face or a gob full of abuse for the sake of a few pounds in revenue? I'm sorry, but it isn't to me.

 

[Flamingo]

The only real solution is barrier all platforms with effective ticket checking at entrance, meaning they can't get in or out without tickets.

Otherwise, TOC's would have to allow staff to use the powers they already have under law to physically detain people, and/or physically remove them. I can't see any TOC opening that can of worms anytime soon.

 

[jon0844]

Gates are a good idea, but I do think BTP should be more proactive on this problem - especially given the huge hit rate for finding offenders who are wanted for other things, carrying things they shouldn't etc. Perhaps working with local forces too?

You need to be able to get on with your job, so what is needed are more checks at stations or for BTP to do stings on the trains - with your assistance, but not involvement (if you see what I mean).

I couldn't say how many would be needed to be effective as a deterrent, but perhaps management could ask TMs like you for guidance of how big the problem is, where the problem stations are etc?

It would be good for the TOC, as other passengers must be as frustrated as you (more so, given they've paid for their tickets) and it all adds to their negative opinion of the railway/TOC overall.

 

[TheEdge]

I'd rather they do the job they purport to do.

I'm sorry but I cannot let this point go unchallenged. When I started as a guard I was given three responsibilities;

1. Safety
2. Punctuality
3. Commercial

Notice how commercial and tickets is the third, the least important, piece of my three main duties. While many seem to think all we do is go up and down clipping tickets for our own amusement we actually do an awful lot more. Not just the ticket man.

 

[bunnahabhain]

You have missed the point completely ... perhaps because you excluded the second part of my sentence from the quote.

The people we are talking about on SET do not spend their time collecting money from willing punters, instead they hassle people who have already paid for, and are travelling on, a valid ticket.

If you can provide any evidence that isn't hearsay and moans from spotters on a forum I may believe you.

I'm sorry but I cannot let this point go unchallenged. When I started as a guard I was given three responsibilities;

1. Safety
2. Punctuality
3. Commercial

Same thing still applies as far as I'm concerned!

 

[Bungle73]

How do you know this person isnt a regular and the TM knew he wouldnt get anywhere with him.
The best the TM could do was just ask the questions, walk away and put another report in about him, eventually he will be caught (possibly a sting) and then all the different occasions will be brought up in court.
Sometimes you have to play the long game.

Maybe. But where is the proof that he was ever on the train at all?

I'm sorry but I cannot let this point go unchallenged. When I started as a guard I was given three responsibilities;

1. Safety
2. Punctuality
3. Commercial

Notice how commercial and tickets is the third, the least important, piece of my three main duties. While many seem to think all we do is go up and down clipping tickets for our own amusement we actually do an awful lot more. Not just the ticket man.

So why are you wasting everyone's time by "checking" tickets when you can't/won't do anything about it when someone doesn't have one?

 

[sheff1]

If you can provide any evidence that isn't hearsay and moans from spotters on a forum I may believe you.

If you don't believe the detailed posts already on this (and other) threads then clearly another post will not change your mind.

 

[jon0844]

So why are you wasting everyone's time by "checking" tickets when you can't/won't do anything about it when someone doesn't have one?

Because most people DO cooperate?

 

[TheEdge]

So why are you wasting everyone's time by "checking" tickets when you can't/won't do anything about it when someone doesn't have one?

Because as has been said most of the time people co-operate and buy a ticket. In the last two weeks when I have probably dealt with thousands of people I only had ONE person refuse to buy a ticket. And in that case his mates told him to shut up and buy a ticket.

Anyway, seeing as you know what to do answer me this. You are going through a train in the evening, everyone has a ticket bar one person, he is clearly drunk and when you challenge him he tells you to f-off. What would YOU do?

 

[455driver]

Maybe. But where is the proof that he was ever on the train at all?

Because the guard will fill in an "intelligence report" stating he was on the train!

Read (and inwardly digest) my previous post! :roll:

 

[island]

The only real solution is barrier all platforms with effective ticket checking at entrance, meaning they can't get in or out without tickets.

Otherwise, TOC's would have to allow staff to use the powers they already have under law to physically detain people, and/or physically remove them. I can't see any TOC opening that can of worms anytime soon.

That won't stop doughnutting or self-upgrading though!

 

[LexyBoy]

If all stations were barriered, then doughnutting wouldn't work as the ticket/smartcard wouldn't have passed through a barrier, which could be detected and flagged up.

As I've said before, we need barriers on the doors of trains, not at stations. And at the entrance to 1st class too.

 

[RJ]

If you can provide any evidence that isn't hearsay and moans from spotters on a forum I may believe you.

You may find evidence will be publicised in the not too distant future. In the meantime, when people post their stories on here, it's reasonable to give the benefit of the doubt in the first instance and ask questions to obtain more information so that appropriate advise can be given. Writing off what people say, true or otherwise, purely because it may portray your colleagues in a negative light is not a mature attitude to take. I personally like to distance myself from the people working on the railways who go around giving customers a good reason to complain, thus reflecting negatively on their grade. Not plead comradeship on public internet forums.

It's not a them and us thing for me. I actually like interacting with customers and would sooner help them if they were genuinely wronged, than chastise them for sharing their grievances. I don't understand the motivation for staff commenting negatively about customers (including enthusiasts) in public, particularly when off duty and posting in leisure time.

 

[2Dogbox]

Only if we can have a trap door at the station as well, so that if they escape the ejector seat we have a back-up

Maybe we could arrange those as well

Just another thing about the whole "fare dodgers". A few weeks back a person who is a known dodger gets one one of my colleagues trains. She won't pay for a ticket so he phones the station to see if there are any BTP about. Luckily there are and she is met by an officer on her arrival.

Anyway, she was apparently known to police and had about 5 Unpaid Fares notices to her name. And she just ignores them. Of course it will eventually go to court but will take forever as is typical with justice. So what do the police do on this occasion? . . .yep . . Write her out a rail travel warrant to travel back later in the day!

 

[Deerfold]

If all stations were barriered, then doughnutting wouldn't work as the ticket/smartcard wouldn't have passed through a barrier, which could be detected and flagged up.

London - Peterborough. CDR is £31

London - Finsbury Park. SDR is £9 (or an Oyster with Travelcard Z1-2 will let you in)

Huntingdon - Peterborough. CDR is £5.90

That's doughnutting saving about 50% (other doughnuts are available saving/dodging more or less). Try detecting that without an on-board presence. Even if you tested if a ticket had been through a barrier before how hard is it to say "oh, they opened the gate as I was struggling with my suitcase/ helping an old lady through".

As I've said before, we need barriers on the doors of trains, not at stations. And at the entrance to 1st class too.

And if the door won't let you in or out without a valid ticket going through I'd hate to be there on the first day a unit failed...

 

[Flamingo]

So why are you wasting everyone's time by "checking" tickets when you can't/won't do anything about it when someone doesn't have one?

If I thought it was a total waste of my and everyone else's time I wouldn't bother at all, believe me. I much prefer drinking tea to performing useless tasks.

Personally, I check tickets for many reasons, in no particular order;
- Because passengers expect it
- It makes me visible to passengers
- It gives me a chance to show off my beautiful body and the snazzy uniform I am provided with
- If passengers are on the wrong train it allows me to help them
- Some passengers may need advice and/or reassurance about connecting trains and platforms to go to
- It allows me to assess and check/interact with all passengers on the train and assess their condition - they may be ill or under the influence and require extra aid.
- If there are passengers who require assistance at their destination, I can identify them (DSB or SNR railcards are a good lead-in) and arrange it /check it is in place and confirm with the receiving station their location on the train.
- Stamping the ticket prevents it being re-used.
- Stamping the ticket helps passengers if they need to claim a refund.
- A visible presence discourages anti-social behaviour.
- They may wish to purchase a ticket, either for this journey, a connecting journey, or a later date, and this gives them an opportunity to.

If somebody regularly doesn't have a ticket, refuses to buy them, appear on the radar often enough, and make a big enough pain in the arrse of themselves, railway ASBO's have been handed down. I know of a few.

 

[sarahj]

Agree with flamingo, though not sure on point 3

 

[Flamingo]

Agree with flamingo, though not sure on point 3

I've the body of a Greek god, I'll have you know! (I keep it in a bag in the attic!)

 

[island]

If all stations were barriered, then doughnutting wouldn't work as the ticket/smartcard wouldn't have passed through a barrier, which could be detected and flagged up.

"The ticket didn't work going in, guv, so they let me through"
"I went through the manual gate because I had luggage"
"The gates were open because the attendant had to have a PNB"
"I was using split tickets"