Is this Southeastern's new "strategy" for dealing with fare dodgers?

[Bungle73]

When someone hasn't got a ticket, just walk off and ignore them?

Just got off a 395 at Sittingbourne, and some guy got on at Strood (surprise, suprise). Train manager comes round checking tickets, and this guy pretends to be asleep. When that doesn't work he fumbles in his pockets for a few seconds, then claims to have "lost" his ticket (yeah, right). TM asks where he's travelling to: Sittingbourne. Then the TM walks off because the train's in a station, and neve comes back. Well, he does. He walks back through the train and right past this guy, who's free to alight unimpeded at Sittingbourne. Nice.

 

[Mr395008]

I've often seen this happen. What's worse is when the sheerness train comes in and they open the barriers at Sittingbourne!

 

[district]

I have noticed a lot of times guards and on-board managers sell discounted tickets from staffed stations/do not issue penalty fares/do not warn passengers never to do it again. Very frustrating.

 

[Monty]

When someone hasn't got a ticket, just walk off and ignore them?

Just got off a 395 at Sittingbourne, and some guy got on at Strood (surprise, suprise). Train manager comes round checking tickets, and this guy pretends to be asleep. When that doesn't work he fumbles in his pockets for a few seconds, then claims to have "lost" his ticket (yeah, right). TM asks where he's travelling to: Sittingbourne. Then the TM walks off because the train's in a station, and neve comes back. Well, he does. He walks back through the train and right past this guy, who's free to alight unimpeded at Sittingbourne. Nice.

It may of been that he became preoccupied and forgot to come back to the gentleman in question, or that he sensed this gentleman would kick off and did not relish an altercation.

 

[RJ]

This new strategy is preferable to the one they have for passengers who are legitimately saving on fares, which involves forced ejection and/or indefinite delay to the service and other services pending BTP's arrival.

 

[Monty]

This new strategy is preferable to the one they have for passengers who are legitimately saving on fares, which involves forced ejection and/or indefinite delay to the service and other services pending BTP's arrival.

I thought that was TPE RJ?

 

[Bungle73]

I've often seen this happen. What's worse is when the sheerness train comes in and they open the barriers at Sittingbourne!

The guard only seems to come round selling/checking tickets when they feel like it on the Sheerness train. I travel between Kemsley and Sittingbourne a lot, and most of the time they don't - tonight being the exception.

It may of been that he became preoccupied and forgot to come back to the gentleman in question, or that he sensed this gentleman would kick off and did not relish an altercation.

He did look the "type" tbh. But then lots of people on this line look the type, and fare dodging is rife from what I've seen.

But if the TM is not going to deal with ticketless passengers, what's the point of having him on there?

And only recently I was told by a TM that I might get lumbered with a penalty fare purely because I had the wrong discount code on my ticket, even though it was exactly the same fare, the mistake was not mine, and after I had been told by two different ticket offices that it would be ok!

 

[185]

Many staff are now of the view that:

1) Deal with the fare dodger and the company sacks you.

2) Don't bother with revenue, and you at worst get told off.

Hopeless management = no revenue.

 

[yorkie]

I have no idea about this specific case, but there is evidence that some SET train managers go for (what they perhaps perceive to be) the 'easy targets', ie people travelling on valid tickets that don't give SET enough revenue.

There are loads of people who've had grief when travelling in accordance with their itinerary or the Routeing Guide, or the shortest route. These people are not going to get violent, so it's easier to go for them, rather than go for someone who clearly has no intention of paying, I guess.

 

[jon0844]

Some staff rightly won't get involved in dealing with people that might be aggressive or violent. Sometimes, however, I get the impression that they can then take out their frustration on easier targets, to convince themselves they still have control.

 

[RJ]

I thought that was TPE RJ?

As it happens, I believe TPE as a rule are pro-customer service. Two less than satisfactory experiences, both at the behest of the same member of staff who has been reported as appropriate doesn't change that .

Southeastern are in a class of their own when it comes to doltish behaviour towards their customers. Solely based upon my experience, this seems to be a problem endemic within the organisation when it comes to dispute resolution, starting from the top down.

 

[sheff1]

Quite. Why bother with someone who has no intention of paying when you can hassle someone who has paid but who doesn't look threatening

 

[bunnahabhain]

Why bother with someone who has no intention of paying

If you're on a busy train with station stops little more than a few minutes apart, you can deal with somebody who will be awkward, refuse to pay, refuse to give their name, address and do everything under the sun to delay you until the train arrives at their station. Alternatively, you can go after the other passengers on the train (of which there may be many!) who are willing and able to purchase a ticket. You net the company more revenue and take action to ensure said offender will get caught out in the future with an RPO or BTP (or on the same train where possible if he's travelling for long enough!).

 

[158801]

Many staff are now of the view that:

1) Deal with the fare dodger and the company sacks you.

2) Don't bother with revenue, and you at worst get told off.

Hopeless management = no revenue.

My sentiments exactly - although I would disagree with 2)

If you don't bother with revenue you are more likely to get a commendation

 

[sheff1]

If you're on a busy train with station stops little more than a few minutes apart, you can deal with somebody who will be awkward, refuse to pay, refuse to give their name, address and do everything under the sun to delay you until the train arrives at their station. Alternatively, you can go after the other passengers on the train (of which there may be many!) who are willing and able to purchase a ticket. You net the company more revenue and take action to ensure said offender will get caught out in the future with an RPO or BTP (or on the same train where possible if he's travelling for long enough!).

You have missed the point completely ... perhaps because you excluded the second part of my sentence from the quote.

The people we are talking about on SET do not spend their time collecting money from willing punters, instead they hassle people who have already paid for, and are travelling on, a valid ticket.

 

[steamybrian]

You have missed the point completely ... perhaps because you excluded the second part of my sentence from the quote.

The people we are talking about on SET do not spend their time collecting money from willing punters, instead they hassle people who have already paid for, and are travelling on, a valid ticket.

I fully agree.

An incident happened a few weeks ago at my local station (Tonbridge) when I was in a long queue at the ticket office. Man on the ticket barrier leaves the barrier and walks over to me and states I should buy my ticket from the ATM. Argument then starts because I say the machine cannot issue the ticket I want but he says it can issue all tickets to all stations. OK- I said can you issue from that machine a staff privilege ticket. Lady next in the queue says she wants an advance return ticket for next Monday to Blackpool. After several minutes the ticket barrier man gives up and walks back to his gate.
In that period approx. 100 passengers walked through an open barrier following a train arrival ....!

 

[Flamingo]

As a Guard on the train, if somebody refuses to buy a ticket, our only realistic option is to walk away. We can't delay the train to have the person removed, we can't physically remove them, there is NO point in calling BTP, and when the scrote gets to their destination, unless BTP are at the barrier we can't detain the scrote, only delay them at the barriers until they climb across them.

This Guards only real option was to walk away and ignore them. Anybody who thinks otherwise, come up with an alternative and I'll tell you why it won't work.

 

[Starmill]

It may of been that he became preoccupied and forgot to come back to the gentleman in question, or that he sensed this gentleman would kick off and did not relish an altercation.

Hmmm... how long a train can you work, going up and down all the way (assuming its not wedged, and the stations are far enough apart, all passengers are compliant, there are plenty of door controls and everyone has their tickets or fares ready) before you simply cannot 'remember' the passengers you've seen at all, and have to rely on 'Tickets from X (Y,Z) please!' and honesty?

 

[Bungle73]

As a Guard on the train, if somebody refuses to buy a ticket, our only realistic option is to walk away. We can't delay the train to have the person removed, we can't physically remove them, there is NO point in calling BTP, and when the scrote gets to their destination, unless BTP are at the barrier we can't detain the scrote, only delay them at the barriers until they climb across them.

This Guards only real option was to walk away and ignore them. Anybody who thinks otherwise, come up with an alternative and I'll tell you why it won't work.

So what are you for then? Does that mean we can all get away without paying?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And I've seen people thrown off the train before, but this TM didn't even attempt to do anything about it, ie sell him another ticket or something. It was "Tickets please", "I've lost it", "Where are you travelling to", "Sittingbourne", walk off. Very, very strange if you ask me.

 

[AlexS]

Confrontations win you no friends with anyone, especially the management. For conductors who only really have rudimentary revenue training and little backup in terms of enforcement, it's not worth the aggro. Call for backup and if it comes, it comes, if it doesn't, then never mind, move on and don't take it personally.

 

[TheEdge]

And I've seen people thrown off the train before, but this TM didn't even attempt to do anything about it, ie sell him another ticket or something. It was "Tickets please", "I've lost it", "Where are you travelling to", "Sittingbourne", walk off. Very, very strange if you ask me.

Not by a guard. RPIs (and various flavours thereof) can have people off trains but not guards.

But if you would rather all guards got into confrontations over every scrote and ticket than concentrate on the far more important part of our duties then don't complain when trains are considerably late all the time.

 

[NSEFAN]

But if you would rather all guards got into confrontations over every scrote and ticket than concentrate on the far more important part of our duties then don't complain when trains are considerably late all the time.

I do wonder if tougher enforcement would reduce this problem in the long term? The currect setup sounds like it is making chronic fare evasion culturally acceptable. It's a sad situation that honest passengers have to support scroungers because the TOC is more concerned about delay minutes.

 

[island]

Not by a guard. RPIs (and various flavours thereof) can have people off trains but not guards.

But if you would rather all guards got into confrontations over every scrote and ticket than concentrate on the far more important part of our duties then don't complain when trains are considerably late all the time.

The person referred to in the post you quoted was not a guard. Class 395s are DOO.

Hmmm... how long a train can you work, going up and down all the way (assuming its not wedged, and the stations are far enough apart, all passengers are compliant, there are plenty of door controls and everyone has their tickets or fares ready) before you simply cannot 'remember' the passengers you've seen at all, and have to rely on 'Tickets from X (Y,Z) please!' and honesty?

is that the sort of honesty you show to the guy who says the bloke on the platform said it'd be fine to travel with an advance for a train in three hours' time?

 

[2Dogbox]

We cannot delay trains for dealing with fare dodgers, much we may want to. The delay would be put down to "train crew" and we would end up with a "please explain" from management. The management love "unpaid fares notices" and like you to do these if there is no other way of getting people to pay. I even have in my bag a letter given out by management last year from my TOC saying under no circumstances were we to remove people from trains.

To me this is all crazy. I have asked fare dodgers to leave the train many times. Not normally had too much of a problem, probably because they just wait for the next one. There are always going to be aggressive morons though (always a Saturday!!)

Personally I would like all our trains to be fitted with ejector seats so the fare dodgers can be catapulted off the train at about 100mph.

 

[Bungle73]

Not by a guard. RPIs (and various flavours thereof) can have people off trains but not guards.

It wasn't an RPI, it was a normal TM.

But if you would rather all guards got into confrontations over every scrote and ticket than concentrate on the far more important part of our duties then don't complain when trains are considerably late all the time.

I'd rather they do the job they purport to do. Why are they hassling me about tickets if they don't have the power/can't be bothered to do anything about it if I don't have one.......unless of course I've just made a genuine error, or am travelling on an unusual, but perfectly valid ticket; in that case they're be down on me like a town of bricks. Nice.

 

[455driver]

Anybody who thinks otherwise, come up with an alternative and I'll tell you why it won't work.

But the armchair warriors know exactly what should be done, they would never try it in practice though!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

but this TM didn't even attempt to do anything about it, ie sell him another ticket or something. It was "Tickets please", "I've lost it", "Where are you travelling to", "Sittingbourne", walk off. Very, very strange if you ask me.

How do you know this person isnt a regular and the TM knew he wouldnt get anywhere with him.
The best the TM could do was just ask the questions, walk away and put another report in about him, eventually he will be caught (possibly a sting) and then all the different occasions will be brought up in court.
Sometimes you have to play the long game.

 

[RJ]

We cannot delay trains for dealing with fare dodgers, much we may want to. The delay would be put down to "train crew" and we would end up with a "please explain" from management. The management love "unpaid fares notices" and like you to do these if there is no other way of getting people to pay. I even have in my bag a letter given out by management last year from my TOC saying under no circumstances were we to remove people from trains.

Southeastern do exactly that. I was travelling from Bromley to Canterbury once and the guard tried to get me off the train at various stops in the middle of nowhere between Tonbridge and Ashford. Eventually he decided the train would be delayed indefinitely at Ashford until I got off. The train driver even abandoned his cab, entered the carriage via the exterior door and decided to get himself involved. First he asked what ticket I had then told me to remove myself from the train, then said I could explain to the police why my ticket was valid from a cell. When I said to them that they would have to take the delay minutes for this, the pair of them decided to get one over on me by doing just that - delaying the train, just to prove a point. The BTP eventually turned up and the guard completely lost his temper when providing a witness statement.

The train was delayed and the delay reason was "ticketing irregularity." I have recordings covering the dialogue at Ashford International and one of the shacks before that.

The following day a guard on a HS1 service decided to indefinitely delay the train pending my removal for reasons unknown to me. I think it was sat there for a good 15 minutes and again, the guard couldn't care less about delaying the train or the other passengers being unhappy about it.

No aggravating factors on top of the ticketing dispute (and I had one in both cases.) I've seen it happen on various occasions when I was a Govia pass holder, their guards delaying trains over fare disputes. The management probably encourage their staff to do this, else it wouldn't be happening.

 

[Yew]

I have noticed a lot of times guards and on-board managers sell discounted tickets from staffed stations/do not issue penalty fares/do not warn passengers never to do it again. Very frustrating.

Its not frustrating, its when some relatively innocent person tries to buy on the train, and ends up with an MG11, thats when its frustrating.

 

[Buttsy]

As a Guard on the train, if somebody refuses to buy a ticket, our only realistic option is to walk away. We can't delay the train to have the person removed, we can't physically remove them, there is NO point in calling BTP, and when the scrote gets to their destination, unless BTP are at the barrier we can't detain the scrote, only delay them at the barriers until they climb across them.

This Guards only real option was to walk away and ignore them. Anybody who thinks otherwise, come up with an alternative and I'll tell you why it won't work.

Management backing conductors and providing an RPI/BTP officer as well as the conductor on every train? I know the answer - too expensive for the TOC...

 

[jon0844]

I do wonder if tougher enforcement would reduce this problem in the long term? The currect setup sounds like it is making chronic fare evasion culturally acceptable. It's a sad situation that honest passengers have to support scroungers because the TOC is more concerned about delay minutes.

I do think that many fare evaders are now quite clued up and of the belief that they can't be touched.

So what are you for then? Does that mean we can all get away without paying?

If you've got the guts, I am sure that is actually true. But could you really sit there and refuse to budge or pay, goading the TM and also having to face all the passengers around you? If so, you're probably already of the mindset of these people who aren't just evading their fare, they're showing the same contempt to just about everyone in their warped way of thinking.

I even have in my bag a letter given out by management last year from my TOC saying under no circumstances were we to remove people from trains.

And if word gets around to the above people that this is policy, they'll get even more comfy in their seats when not paying.

To me this is all crazy.

Quite, but that's the fault of management and the seriousness (or lack) of the crime as perceived by BTP. In effect, the decision to not risk delaying the odd train has now encouraged more and more people to try it on - and show to those who do that they won't be touched the majority of the time.

The odd incident where they're unlucky and do get chucked off, they're simply on the next train. In an even rarer incident where BTP do turn up, it's a mere occupational hazard (and they'll show just as much contempt to them).

I have asked fare dodgers to leave the train many times. Not normally had too much of a problem, probably because they just wait for the next one. There are always going to be aggressive morons though (always a Saturday!!)

Personally I would like all our trains to be fitted with ejector seats so the fare dodgers can be catapulted off the train at about 100mph.

That would be nice, although I do expect Flamingo will be quick to point out that FGW would consider that a health & safety risk unless the dodger is provided with a parachute first.

As it stands, it needs management and BTP to take this problem seriously and perhaps draw up some plan of attack to show these people that it isn't acceptable. Perhaps one or two days a month where BTP will perform stings at stations, or even travel plain-clothed on trains.

Failure to do so will just make the matter worse because eventually more people will just try it on, by seeing how easy it is - and also getting angry about paying themselves when others can go free so easily.