Is this even fare evasion?

[bb21]

If the tickets are not (perceived to be) valid, they can make you aware of that fact, but there is no reason that I know of why they should refuse a sale, with "Restrictions Advised" stamped on if needed.

Of course some staff will refuse and I don't think there is anything a passenger can do to force a sale unfortunately.

 

[island]

Out of curiosity, if I ask for a specific combination of tickets that I know to be valid, but the member of staff doesn't think they are valid, are they required to still sell me the tickets or are they allowed to refuse to do so?

I don't know about the "allowed" bit, but certainly I have experienced situations where staff members erroneously refused to sell me tickets which were valid.

 

[razor89]

What he said. Impartial retailing requires the clerk to offer the most appropriate ticket for the journey as described, asking additional questions to narrow it down where there's a choice of tickets, and explicitly not to offer splits unless there is no through fare for the journey or the passenger requests a specific split.

Similarly, if a passenger requests a specific combination of tickets, there's no requirement to detail the restrictions that apply on those tickets.

So if somebody asks for a certain ticket which costs approximately £400 which is an outrageous fare for the journey, and I know of a split that will take around £100 off the price, I can't sell it if the passenger doesn't know about it?

They can discipline me all they want, I'd always tell the passenger about it.

 

[maniacmartin]

They can discipline me all they want, I'd always tell the passenger about it.

This is forbidden for a good reason - to stop staff employed one TOC offering splits that result in more revenue for their employer and less for competing TOCs. There was a high-profile instance of this in 1996 that resulted in a delay in the letting of a rail franchise

 

[sheff1]

This is forbidden for a good reason - to stop staff employed one TOC offering splits that result in more revenue for their employer and less for competing TOCs. There was a high-profile instance of this in 1996 that resulted in a delay in the letting of a rail franchise

I didn't think that was anything to do with splits ??
But as it was some time ago so I may be mistaken.

 

[razor89]

This is forbidden for a good reason - to stop staff employed one TOC offering splits that result in more revenue for their employer and less for competing TOCs. There was a high-profile instance of this in 1996 that resulted in a delay in the letting of a rail franchise

I can see then why the TOCs don't want this to happen. But from the point of view of the passenger its pretty poor don't you think? Personally I have no interest in earning my TOC more revenue, I'm only interested in finding the best deal for my passengers, in line with the "customer service is everything" line which is drilled into the staff periodically.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I didn't think that was anything to do with splits ??
But as it was some time ago so I may be mistaken.

In the LTS case, I believe they were bulk issuing Travelcards at Fenchurch Street (which they kept all the revenue from) then sending them to Barking (and/or Upminster) by train and selling them there, whereas revenue from tickets issued locally at Barking and Upminster was shared with LU.

Something like that anyway...

 

[sheff1]

In the LTS case, I believe they were bulk issuing Travelcards at Fenchurch Street (which they kept all the revenue from) then sending them to Barking (and/or Upminster) by train and selling them there, whereas revenue from tickets issued locally at Barking and Upminster was shared with LU.

Something like that anyway...

Thanks. That is what I thought as well ... in which case, nothing to do with splitting.

 

[maniacmartin]

My mistake. However I think the same principle applies to splitting

 

[Tibbs]

When my dad visited me, he was (to his slight bemusement) sold tickets from a station further away than his origin by the ticket seller at the window.

When I investigated, it made the tickets a bit cheaper. Which was nice.

 

[CyrusWuff]

When my dad visited me, he was (to his slight bemusement) sold tickets from a station further away than his origin by the ticket seller at the window.

Numerous reasons why that can be the case, such as PTE involvement, station clustering or a TOC simply forgetting they maintain the flow in question.

As an example, I was visiting a friend in Normanton once and there was a Rail Replacement Bus service in operation thence to Wakefield Kirkgate, where trains resumed.

Thinking he was doing me a favour, the Conductor on the train to Sheffield offered just to sell me a Single from Wakefield, which is currently £9.60 (Any Permitted, NOT DONCASTER wasn't an option at the time), whereas the fare from Normanton is £9.20, so I naturally insisted on paying from Normanton as it was cheaper.

 

[talltim]

This is forbidden for a good reason - to stop staff employed one TOC offering splits that result in more revenue for their employer and less for competing TOCs. There was a high-profile instance of this in 1996 that resulted in a delay in the letting of a rail franchise

I don't understand that. The article says that the franchise takeover was delayed because of the fraud committed by LTS, but if LTS hadn't taken over yet the fraud wasn't their fault.

 

[Deerfold]

I don't understand that. The article says that the franchise takeover was delayed because of the fraud committed by LTS, but if LTS hadn't taken over yet the fraud wasn't their fault.

The joint commercial director of Enterprise Rail (planning to trade as LTS) was also the joint commercial director of the BR subsidiary LTS - and he resigned.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/government-orders-rail-fraud-inquiry-1317400.html

 

[Matt Taylor]

How about a hypothetical example?

I'm working a train on the Dorset coast, two people get on at Beaulieu Road (unstaffed with no TVM or PTT). They wish to travel off peak to Brighton returning the following day (off peak) but they are meeting their friends at Victoria first. The train they are on goes to Waterloo calling at Clapham Junction and I am fairly pressed for time as I have to operate the doors at Ashurst and Totton before getting off at Southampton.

The correct fare is £66.40 (SVR any permitted), but I know there that by splitting at Clapham the fare goes down to £27.70 (SVR rte Not London) plus the cost of a return from Clapham to Victoria. Bear in mind I don't know these fares offhand and I would have to look them up on the avantix.

What should I offer them?

 

[Flamingo]

Whatever get's you most commission, of course

 

[CyrusWuff]

I'm working a train on the Dorset coast, two people get on at Beaulieu Road (unstaffed with no TVM or PTT). They wish to travel off peak to Brighton returning the following day (off peak) but they are meeting their friends at Victoria first. The train they are on goes to Waterloo calling at Clapham Junction and I am fairly pressed for time as I have to operate the doors at Ashurst and Totton before getting off at Southampton.

The correct fare is £66.40 (SVR any permitted), but I know there that by splitting at Clapham the fare goes down to £27.70 (SVR rte Not London) plus the cost of a return from Clapham to Victoria. Bear in mind I don't know these fares offhand and I would have to look them up on the avantix.

What should I offer them?

Going by the book, you should sell them the "Any Permitted" ticket, as that's valid for the journey as described (doubling back between Clapham Junction and Victoria/Waterloo being permitted by an easement).

In practice, you'd probably come up with a "creative" reason for issuing the split, however.