Is this door actually unlocked?

[ivorytoast28]

I didn't press it for obvious reasons but it appears that this end of carriage door is openable straight onto the front loco. The train is R606 Tatran in Slovakia. Is it actually likely to be unlocked and would this be allowed in the uk?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I didn't press it for obvious reasons but it appears that this end of carriage door is openable straight onto the front loco. The train is R606 Tatran in Slovakia. Is it actually likely to be unlocked

No. You can tell if you look up by the direction of the line on the carriage key lock - the little diagram at the top just off the photo will tell you which way is locked.

and would this be allowed in the uk?

It wouldn't be allowed to be unlocked, no, but I doubt it is there either. The button is lit up but that doesn't mean it's not locked. Normally these doors have the mechanism enabled at all times (hence the button lit up) but they are mechanically locked. If you press it it may open about 1/4" or so but then stop when it hits the physical lock.

If it was Albania I'd not risk it, but Slovakia isn't a backward country.

It's possible they forgot to lock it, in which case you might want to tell the guard.

 

[superalbs]

I've had similar in Poland too, and in these places it was still locked.

However, in Bulgaria and Romania, it was unlocked and you could get a lovely unrestricted view and breeze out of the back. It was lovely!

 

[JKF]

On my trip up the Douro earlier this week several carriage doors were wide open during travel. With that and the windows that drop down to half height you got quite an earful of the English Electric symphony going on up front.

 

[DanielB]

The stock is no longer in use, but this DH-1 with doors open is the most extreme one I know from The Netherlands...

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's surprising as NL often has even more of a health and safety culture than us.

The Swiss on the other hand...trains going out with open doors was extremely common until the recent change to their downright dangerous dispatch procedure.

 

[Trainbike46]

That's surprising as NL often has even more of a health and safety culture than us.

The Swiss on the other hand...trains going out with open doors was extremely common until the recent change to their downright dangerous dispatch procedure.

I've experienced doors opening off the platform, and know of family who had the doors opened at the wrong side of the train (both less than 10 years ago!). It also wasn't that uncommon for trains to start moving before the final door had fully closed

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've experienced doors opening off the platform, and know of family who had the doors opened at the wrong side of the train (both less than 10 years ago!). It also wasn't that uncommon for trains to start moving before the final door had fully closed

Standard RIC coaches used in most European countries (though some have now modernised them) don't have any form of selective door release. When the train drops below 5km/h, all doors are released on both sides.

Dispatch with the crew door open is still fairly common, and for years was allowed in the UK too. Some Merseyrail guards seem to (potentially unofficially) still do it, as the cab doors on 50x aren't interlocked. Last time I saw it done was last weekend.

 

[Trainbike46]

Standard RIC coaches used in most European countries (though some have now modernised them) don't have any form of selective door release. When the train drops below 5km/h, all doors are released on both sides.

Both of the weird door opening cases I mentioned were on NS SLT trains, introduced in this century (thought they aren't capable of SDO, but they shouldn't need it because all platforms are of adequate length)
The door of platform incident was because the train had stopped in the wrong place along the platform
During the wrong side door opening incident only the doors at the non-platform side onto a running line opened, while the doors at the platform side stayed locked

Dispatch with the crew door open is still fairly common, and for years was allowed in the UK too. Some Merseyrail guards seem to (potentially unofficially) still do it, as the cab doors on 50x aren't interlocked. Last time I saw it done was last weekend.

Fair enough, though this was mostly on VIRM trains, which are dispatched from a passenger door, not a cab door (though boarding is banned from the start of dispatch procedure!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fair enough, though this was mostly on VIRM trains, which are dispatched from a passenger door, not a cab door (though boarding is banned from the start of dispatch procedure!)

Also applies to a passenger door used by crew on RIC stock. I believe it also did apply on Eurostar's 373s, but may not still do.

 

[DanielB]

Dispatching with door open has been abandoned years ago in the Netherlands. The driver now has to have a green light in the cab indicating doors closed before departing. With SGMm there even has been the requirement for the guard to contact the driver for confirmation that all doors have been closed, as the green light was found to malfunction occasionally.

 

[Trainbike46]

Dispatching with door open has been abandoned years ago in the Netherlands. The driver now has to have a green light in the cab indicating doors closed before departing. With SGMm there even has been the requirement for the guard to contact the driver for confirmation that all doors have been closed, as the green light was found to malfunction occasionally.

I did move away 6 years ago, and most of the things I mentioned happened a few years before I left, so likely almost 10 years ago. When did the procedures change?

 

[JKF]

That's surprising as NL often has even more of a health and safety culture than us.

That was my expectation too until I spent New Year’s Eve in Rotterdam, people letting fireworks off all over the place even launching them at each other in the street. Never seen anything like it!

 

[AndrewE]

The Swiss on the other hand...trains going out with open doors was extremely common until the recent change to their downright dangerous dispatch procedure.

I thought it was a deliberate feature of older European stock: don't waste man-hours or train time by running up and down the platform shutting doors, it happens automatically when a certain speed is reached. The doors closed over a Yale-type latch so they couldn't be re-opened.
It added to the fun of foreign holidays by rail.

Mind you, I did once go to the loo on a couchette coach thundering through N Italy in the small hours and realised that the carriage door was open! It seemed safe enough to just close it, rather than any cord-pulling histrionics...

 

[XAM2175]

Dispatch with the crew door open is still fairly common, and for years was allowed in the UK too. Some Merseyrail guards seem to (potentially unofficially) still do it, as the cab doors on 50x aren't interlocked. Last time I saw it done was last weekend.

Still the standard practice in much of Australia as well, unless it's changed in the last couple of years.

 

[MisterT]

Both of the weird door opening cases I mentioned were on NS SLT trains

Moving with open doors is technically impossible with SLT, so it must have been a different kind of train where that happened. There are a few older trains that can still do it, but all trains introduced after the 2000s have a traction block as long as any door is unlocked/opened.
The door closing procedure hasn't changed for a long time, and all doors must be fully closed and locked before departure.

Doors opening while the train is not fully at the platform can be a driver error, or the train guard hasn't informed the passengers about it. It is very uncommon, but not impossible to have a train longer than a platform. In that case the guard has to warn the passengers that the rear door(s) can not be used. We don't have a selective door opening system in the Netherlands, we can only choose which side to release.
If both sides are unlocked, that can be both a driver error (we can unlock both sides after each other), or the train has been put into 'cleaning mode', which unlocks all doors for easy cleaning. This is obviously not allowed in passenger service and is only to be used at a depot for the cleaning crews.

 

[Trainbike46]

Moving with open doors is technically impossible with SLT, so it must have been a different kind of train where that happened. There are a few older trains that can still do it, but all trains introduced after the 2000s have a traction block as long as any door is unlocked/opened.
The door closing procedure hasn't changed for a long time, and all doors must be fully closed and locked before departure.

Doors opening while the train is not fully at the platform can be a driver error, or the train guard hasn't informed the passengers about it. It is very uncommon, but not impossible to have a train longer than a platform. In that case the guard has to warn the passengers that the rear door(s) can not be used. We don't have a selective door opening system in the Netherlands, we can only choose which side to release.
If both sides are unlocked, that can be both a driver error (we can unlock both sides after each other), or the train has been put into 'cleaning mode', which unlocks all doors for easy cleaning. This is obviously not allowed in passenger service and is only to be used at a depot for the cleaning crews.

The two cases on the SLT were:
1 (which I experienced myself): Final door was not on the platform, because the train had not stopped in the correct position
2 (which my brother experienced at the same station): wrong side door release, so the doors onto the adjacent running line were unlocked, but the ones on the platform side stayed locked. This was apparently rectified very quickly, with the wrong side doors being locked, and the right side doors being opened.

All cases of train moving before final door locked were on VIRM trains, before any of the recent-ish renovations (if that's relevant)

 

[duesselmartin]

I am sure its still done in international trains in the NL.

Dispatching with door open has been abandoned years ago in the Netherlands. The driver now has to have a green light in the cab indicating doors closed before departing. With SGMm there even has been the requirement for the guard to contact the driver for confirmation that all doors have been closed, as the green light was found to malfunction occasionally.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought it was a deliberate feature of older European stock: don't waste man-hours or train time by running up and down the platform shutting doors, it happens automatically when a certain speed is reached. The doors closed over a Yale-type latch so they couldn't be re-opened.
It added to the fun of foreign holidays by rail.

Mind you, I did once go to the loo on a couchette coach thundering through N Italy in the small hours and realised that the carriage door was open! It seemed safe enough to just close it, rather than any cord-pulling histrionics...

Not had it for a bit, but time for the "RIC/UIC doors" spiel. I spent many years trying to work out how they worked, but this is it. It's the same for plug doors as folding doors, it all works nicely together.

There are, on such coaches, two totally independent systems. One is the door closer, the other is the "door blocking" (translation of Tuerblockierung/bloquage des portes).

The closer is actuated electrically but is carried out by air pressure from a reservoir on the coach. When the guard's UIC square key (the inverse of a UK T-key) is turned in a lock near the door, pressure is applied to the cylinders in the door mechanism, and the door closes, generally pretty firmly. That pressure takes about 10 seconds or so to leak away, but until it does the door can't be opened from the inside or the outside due to the leverage that would be needed to do so against the pressure. Edit: The door at which they operated the key stays open until they close manually (folding doors) or push the close button (plug doors).

The "door blocking" is a feature whereby when the train exceeds 5km/h (determined by each coach individually) the interior door handle mechanism is disconnected mechanically. I'm fairly sure it's a solenoid that does this electrically (as I can't see any way to get air pressure into the door leaf itself). The external door handle is unaffected, so the door can be opened from the outside, but not the inside. It automatically reconnects when the speed drops below 5km/h, you can hear a click as it engages and disengages. In some newer plug door stock this also actuates some sort of feature to pressure-seal the door, e.g. by forcing the door into the body or by blowing up a baffle, but the mechanisms vary.

Not all coaches have both. There were in the 1990s old DB coaches knocking around that had UK style wraparound doors with no closer but still had door blocking, while some countries have the closer but not the blocking mechanism (so in this case the guard closes them but you can reopen them again about 10 seconds later). Doors with the blocking mechanism usually have an orange or red plastic covered handle on a visible box containing the mechanism, those without it's typically the original metal one pretty much flat against the door leaf.

There are also some modifications that have been done over the years. DB introduced Tb0 (Tuerblockierung 0km/h, door blocking at 0km/h) which improved the seals for the closure mechanism and automatically reapplied the pressure periodically so it wouldn't leak away, preventing opening from the inside and out until the driver pressed an unlock button. SBB recently added a facility whereby the seals weren't improved but closure pressure is applied automatically about every 30 seconds when moving above 5km/h, which means any doors left open by the previous dangerous dispatch process would close themselves fairly quickly. The annoyance of the latter was that if it happened just as you stopped you'd be stuck there unable to open the door for 30 seconds, causing passenger disquiet and delay.

This system isn't "sided", as I discovered in the late 90s when I opened an offside door at a station (fiddling with the handle, not expecting it to open) and almost fell out!

I think that about sums it up.

 

[DanielB]

I am sure its still done in international trains in the NL.

Depends on which international trains. The IC trains to Berlin have been equipped with Tb0 (explained by Bletchleyite above) and the push-pull sets with Traxx to Brussels definitely do have the green light system.

That would leave only the ICE or the German/Belgian trains crossing the border to possibly have something else.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I expect you can still dispatch with the local door open using Tb0, but as soon as you start it'll close itself so you'll not be stood by an open door for long. Not having been in DBland for a good while, I don't know what they're actually doing now.

Most DB and tendered regional stuff including loco hauled double deck is DOO with "sided" release even if it carries a "conductor" to do tickets etc. For instance Muenchen-Salzburg FLIRTs appear to be done either DOO or with the second driver (for the Freilassing split) acting as a dispatcher, a bit like the plans for Merseyrail but without the fancy keyfob. I remember this all being announced, as it meant that in most locations the classic, atmospheric "dong-ding Bitte einsteigen, Tueren schliessen selbsttaetig, Vorsicht bei der Abfahrt"* announcement is now a thing of the past.

* On those old wrapround door coaches you got "Bitte einsteigen, Tueren schliessen", so I guess that had a different button! (Edit: that version is on there too, at the start and at 1:13)
The original one is at 1:08 on this:

but there were a load of variants, but that bell recording is about the most German sounding thing imaginable, almost as German as SNCF's "do do doo do" thing is distinctly French.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Many years ago on a daytime Barcelona-Madrid train which was repeatedly delayed on a baking hot day, with the water on the train having run out, many of the doors for getting on and off at platforms (at the side of the vestibule where pairs of carriages interconnected) were open for much of the journey, with people hanging out of them trying to get some breeze.

 

[DanielB]

All cases of train moving before final door locked were on VIRM trains, before any of the recent-ish renovations (if that's relevant)

Procedures started to change in the late 2000s I believe, when the last loco hauled stock without door locking circuit was withdrawn.
When I started commuting to my first job in 2007 I was on ICK coaches almost daily. Still remember the afternoon the train got stranded on the viaduct meters before Delft station due to a signal failure: After a while passengers from the rear coaches started to appear, walking towards the station. Disembarked myself a few minutes later, finding that the cause of the disruption had been changed to "people on the tracks" when arriving at the station.
That will have been one of my last experiences with doors not being locked when the speed was low enough.

 

[Segedunum]

I remember when I first went to Belgium in 2018 the dispatch procedure was still that the local door remained open and the guard stood and leaned out until the train was clear of the platform. This felt especially weird on the newer Desiro stock.

Having witnessed passengers attempt to jump in this door as the train was departing, I can see why this was subsequently changed...

 

[XAM2175]

I expect you can still dispatch with the local door open using Tb0, but as soon as you start it'll close itself so you'll not be stood by an open door for long. Not having been in DBland for a good while, I don't know what they're actually doing now.

I think that they're back to having the driver watch the train out of the platform, though now with mirrors or cameras more than the old head-out-the-cab-window trick (which is not to say that I haven't seen a good number of FV drivers hanging out the doors of 101s in the last year or so, haha)

but that bell recording is about the most German sounding thing imaginable

 

[MisterT]

All cases of train moving before final door locked were on VIRM trains, before any of the recent-ish renovations (if that's relevant)

With VIRM there is no traction block or holding brake, so yes, it's absolutely possible, even after the renovation. My best guess, however, would be that the driver released the brakes early (I know there are a few drivers out there who do that, unfortunately, as soon as they hear the indication that the guard is closing the doors) and the train just started rolling away. Actually driving away with open doors will immediately sound a very loud alarm, which is something that drivers really don't want to hear