Is this bus actually free?

[tramdan]

I recall discussion previously about passengers perceiving Rail Replacement Buses as being free of charge. This morning it appears that transport YouTuber Paul Lucas has travelled on the 1117 West Ealing to West Ruislip, a RRB provided by Chiltern Railways. In his posting he claims twice that “no payment [is] needed” and “it’s free”.

Is the general consensus that RRBs are indeed subject to rail fares, and that in this case the £7.80 Anytime Day Single fare is due? Or are there some special arrangements by which this service is provided free of charge to passengers?

Post 1:

I just rode London's rarest, most silly bus!

This rail replacement runs in place of a Chiltern Railways train (details to come in the thread for nerds!) - no payment needed, it runs ONCE A WEEK on Weds mornings - in one direction only!

West Ealing to West Ruislip.

The ride takes just 20 minutes.

Post 2:

It was just me and one other passenger today - and a third who got on “by mistake” who was dropped off along the route. It’s otherwise non stop and vastly quicker than the regular E7 bus which takes about 45 minutes. (Did I mention it’s free??)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Generally fares are due, though revenue protection tends to be a bit lacking. I don't know how it would work with contactless - presumably relevant gatelines are left open so you can touch in and out in the station before boarding the bus and after alighting from it.

 

[Buzby]

I’ve usually been prompted to show my ticket to join a RRB. Perhaps the driver wasn’t set up to issue standard travel tickets and was just being ‘helpful’. The shuttle bus between Glasgow Central/Queen Street is at no cost if you wave a ticket at the driver on entry BUT will be charged if you don’t. True this isn’t a RRB but provides a similar link.

 

[Essan]

I have always assumed that if you use a RRB then you must have a valid ticket for the train it's replacing - albeit can't ever recall having been asked to show one, and I've never used a RRB for just a short trip, where the bus constitutes the whole of my journey.

Whether boarding without being in possession of a ticket is fare dodging, is an interesting point. But the idea of just walking up to the station and boarding a bus for a free journey seems very morally wrong to me, even if it's not technically illegal.

 

[Tom]

that in this case the £7.80 Anytime Day Single fare is due?

I'd say the appropriate cheapest fare is probably the Oyster PAYG single at £2 which I imagine they also are not able to collect on a bus.

 

[Spaceship323]

The bus in question doesn't replace a train though so I don't think it can be classed as a RRB, it just happens to be supplied by Chiltern free of charge
West Ealing is on the GWML, Chiltern trains don't serve that station.
And yes, you do usually need a valid rail ticket to board a RRB, the bus driver can't check tickets as they won't have had the appropriate training but revenue protection can prosecute if they catch anyone without a ticket

 

[Bletchleyite]

The bus in question doesn't replace a train though so can't be classed as a RRB, it just happens to be supplied by chiltern free of charge

It is an RRB. It replaces a Parliamentary passenger service over a now-closed piece of line where the due closure proceedings have not been carried out.

 

[Wolfie]

Generally fares are due, though revenue protection tends to be a bit lacking. I don't know how it would work with contactless - presumably relevant gatelines are left open so you can touch in and out in the station before boarding the bus and after alighting from it.

The potential issue with that is the distance between some stations and the RRB stop, particularly in London - for example for Canonbury station the RRB stop at Clephane Road is a good 4-5 mins walk.

 

[JonathanH]

It is an RRB. It replaces a Parliamentary passenger service over a now-closed piece of line where the due closure proceedings have not been carried out.

It really isn't obvious why a specific bus needs to be put on to replace this service when passengers could use GWR to Greenford and then Central Line to West Ruislip. Is there genuinely some provision in the rules that only a bus can be a railway replacement service? Could not Chiltern Railways come to an agreement with GWR and London Underground that rail tickets are accepted on one specific connection each week?

 

[Wolfie]

It really isn't obvious why a specific bus needs to be put on to replace this service when passengers could use GWR to Greenford and then Central Line to West Ruislip. Is there genuinely some provision in the rules that only a bus can be a railway replacement service? Could not Chiltern Railways come to an agreement with GWR and London Underground that rail tickets are accepted on one specific connection each week?

Probably because doing what you suggest might set a precedent to close other sections of track without going through the intentionally onerous formal process. It also assumes that the Underground have agreed to accept those tickets.

 

[Spaceship323]

It is an RRB. It replaces a Parliamentary passenger service over a now-closed piece of line where the due closure proceedings have not been carried out.

OK a bus service that replaces a train that stopped running 5 years ago, as Paul says "a silly bus"!

 

[Bletchleyite]

OK a bus service that replaces a train that stopped running 5 years ago, as Paul says "a silly bus"!

It's certainly silly (the correct thing to do would be to carry out the closure process for the piece of line concerned), but it is an RRB.

 

[SynthD]

It really isn't obvious why a specific bus needs to be put on to replace this service when passengers could use GWR to Greenford and then Central Line to West Ruislip. Is there genuinely some provision in the rules that only a bus can be a railway replacement service? Could not Chiltern Railways come to an agreement with GWR and London Underground that rail tickets are accepted on one specific connection each week?

It can’t be replaced by a tube or regular bus service as that is too easily changed, removed. This RRB, and others like it (Tilbury) are far more of a permanent fixture than the buses around (E7). I think the Tilbury bus goes elsewhere as a regular service after the RRB section.

 

[reb0118]

I'll hijack this thread. I'm heading down to London next week. I need to get my Oyster card updated with my staff travel discount. To kill the time between arriving off the sleeper and 10:00 (from when the selected Elizabeth Line stations can update Oyster) I plan to take a wee side trip to Aylesbury (out via Chalfont & Latimer and returning via High Wycombe). By merely looking at a map it looked possible to return via Princes Risborough & Greenford to West Ealing (were I can update my Oyster).

However, there appears to be no National Rail services between West Ruislip & Greenford (it being exclusively Central Line).

Are there any permitted routes that would allow this?

 

[JBuchananGB]

Here is an article about this service

Last chance to ride Chiltern’s parliamentary train

Once a week a train leaves a London station it shouldn't, and you have just a few weeks left to catch a ride before it stops, possibly forever.

www.ianvisits.co.uk

Published 15 November 2022 By Ian Mansfield Transport News
Once a week a train leaves a London station it shouldn’t, and you have just a few weeks left to catch a ride before it stops, possibly forever.

This is the Chiltern Railway’s parliamentary train service and it is both a training exercise for Chiltern drivers and a legacy of a curious quirk of railway legislation. It was once a requirement that rail companies provide a basic service on every line they operate to ensure everyone had access to public transport, although the train companies often put them on at awkward times as they didn’t really want to run them. As it was an order from the government to provide them, they were known as Parliamentary Trains

 

[Wolfie]

It can’t be replaced by a tube or regular bus service as that is too easily changed, removed. This RRB, and others like it (Tilbury) are far more of a permanent fixture than the buses around (E7). I think the Tilbury bus goes elsewhere as a regular service after the RRB section.

The Tilbury bus does indeed. It runs a circular route around Tilbury focussed on the Asda supermarket.

 

[miklcct]

Rail replacement buses in London are effectively free as long as you have an intention to pay by PAYG by presenting an Oyster card or contactless payment card, because there is no fare collection equipment for these buses.

 

[stadler]

Rail Replacement Buses are always unofficially free. Yes officially you should have a ticket but nobody checks and nobody cares. I highly doubt revenue protection would even have any authority to check tickets on rail replacement buses or to issue penalty fares or prosecutions. The laws and bylaws are for trains and not for buses so i highly doubt any attempted prosecution would be successful if they were to try.

I have been on hundreds of rail replacement buses and never come across a rail replacement bus driver who asks to see tickets. I personally never bother buying a ticket when rail replacement is in operation. You just walk on. In fact in many cases it is impossible to have a ticket as the drivers of rail replacement buses are unable to sell tickets. Many stations have no ticket machine. Many stations only have card only ticket machines making cash purchases impossible. So lots of people would not even be able to buy one anyway. Within the London area (which is the case for the bus mentioned in this thread) it is impossible to use Oyster or Contactless on a rail replacement bus so these passengers definitely travel free of charge as they have no ther option.

I have also driven hundreds of rail replacement buses myself (i was a bus driver for many years) and i never asked to see tickets and nobody ever showed them. In fact some of my managers actually told us that rail replacement buses are free. So i think even most bus drivers and bus company management actually think they are free.

In the case of the West Ealing rail replacement bus i have never bothered with a ticket. I have been on it four times and never had a ticket. Just walk on the bus. The drivers do not expect you to show a ticket. On this bus they will probably be more surprised that somebody actually shows up. Most of the time the West Ealing bus is empty. Nobody other than the occasional enthusiast is going to take this bus.

 

[Belperpete]

Rail Replacement Buses are always unofficially free.

Not on the Cambrian they aren't. At Machynlleth, your ticket will often be checked before you are allowed on the bus, and you will be directed to the booking office if you don't have one. And sometimes, as on my last trip, a conductor will ride on the bus to sell tickets to those joining at intermediate stations.

However, I could see problems with ticketing a RRB in the London Oyster or contactless areas. How would you swipe in and out? Going through the barriers, and then promptly exiting again to join the RRB, would lead to excessive charging. I know that sometimes TFL run RRBs: how do they avoid someone getting charged for two separate journeys (rather than one through journey) where the middle leg of a journey is on an RRB?

 

[Mojo]

Rail replacement buses in London are effectively free as long as you have an intention to pay by PAYG by presenting an Oyster card or contactless payment card, because there is no fare collection equipment for these buses.

l can't remember exactly where l was other than somewhere on the SWT network and at least ten years ago, but South West Trains installed standalone passenger validators in some station carparks for use on replacement bus services.

 

[tramdan]

Personally if using this service I would explain to the station staff at one end that I needed to touch in to pay for my Rail Replacement Bus journey, and then do the same at the end of the trip. It seems very unreasonable to simply take the journey for free because paying for it is ever so slightly more complicated than usual.

 

[JonathanH]

Rail Replacement Buses are always unofficially free.

Absolutely not. There is an issue in London where nothing sensible has been set up to integrate with Oyster and Contactless which has led to an impression that the replacement buses are free, but it is not the case elsewhere, and a ticket should be held.

So i think even most bus drivers and bus company management actually think they are free.

I agree that replacement bus drivers have no role to play in revenue protection.

 

[AlterEgo]

Interesting to see the discussion here! There is no way to pay the contactless rail fare for this bus, which doesn’t arrive or leave from any railway property in any case.

 

[tramdan]

Interesting to see the discussion here! There is no way to pay the contactless rail fare for this bus, which doesn’t arrive or leave from any railway property in any case.

However there is clearly a way to purchase a paper ticket, so presumably the onus on the passenger is to do so. Any issue with the price of said ticket vs the contactless fare would presumably be taken up with the operator’s customer relations team later on?

They are not necessarily the last word of authority on the railway, but I thought I would ask Chiltern’s social media team for their input, and they said this:

Passengers will need a ticket for their journey in order to use a rail replacement bus.


For more information, section 30 of The National Rail Conditions of Travel os regarding delays, cancellations and replacement services


National Rail _Conditions_of_Travel _2024.pdf

 

[JonathanH]

There is no way to pay the contactless rail fare for this bus

Not true. A passenger can very simply touch on the barriers at West Ealing before boarding the bus and out on the standalone readers at West Ruislip.

However there is clearly a way to purchase a paper ticket, so presumably the onus on the passenger is to do so. Any issue with the price of said ticket vs the contactless fare would presumably be taken up with the operator’s customer relations team later on?

As above, just pay the contactless fare.

Many stations have no ticket machine. Many stations only have card only ticket machines making cash purchases impossible. So lots of people would not even be able to buy one anyway.

That is wearing thin with the availability of e-tickets.

 

[AlterEgo]

Not true. A passenger can very simply touch on the barriers at West Ealing before boarding the bus and out on the readers at West Ruislip.

You’d need to reach around and misuse the barrier at destination, and in any case there remains no obligation to do so. The bus departs from a bus stop, and arrives at one - not the station - or in fact anywhere on railway property. The bus is free, as the driver and everyone who uses the bus will confirm.

 

[JonathanH]

You’d need to reach around and misuse the barrier at destination, and in any case there remains no obligation to do so.

Not really. In this instance West Ruislip has standalone barriers on the Chiltern line platforms accessible without 'reaching round'.

 

[tramdan]

Not really. In this instance West Ruislip has standalone barriers on the Chiltern line platforms accessible without 'reaching round'.

Indeed, even if they were normal barriers, I doubt the attendant staff would mind you tapping out, if you explained that you had just alighted the RRB.

 

[AlterEgo]

Indeed, even if they were normal barriers, I doubt the attendant staff would mind you tapping out, if you explained that you had just alighted the RRB.

Who would even bother? The bus runs between two bus stops! No fare is due, or can be enforced.

Incidentally the staff at West Ealing are unaware of the bus, which doesn’t stop at the station any more and which doesn’t appear on the screens.

 

[Spaceship323]

Rail Replacement Buses are always unofficially free. Yes officially you should have a ticket but nobody checks and nobody cares.

Just going by memory, it's allready been discussed here: (Doesn't apply to the West Ealing bus of course)

TfW revenue block for rail replacement buses

This is a first. At Cardiff central today (maybe always, rarely get RRB) there was a revenue block for people getting off rail replacement buses. It was incredibly well staffed (more staff checking tickets than got off my bus at least). Seems a bit of a joke charging people full price for a...

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